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Grammar - Printable Version

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Grammar - Kestrel - 10-06-2018

SubtleBeast Forum Signature Wrote:"Shut up." Briar grouches to Gage, her eyes narrowing on the man. "I don't have the energy to put up with your pendantic bullshit." 

"Pedantic." Gage mutters, dryly. 

Briar walks to the left.

You feel amused.


RE: Grammar - SubtleBeast - 10-06-2018

(10-06-2018, 05:01 PM)Kestrel Wrote:
SubtleBeast Forum Signature Wrote:"Shut up." Briar grouches to Gage, her eyes narrowing on the man. "I don't have the energy to put up with your pendantic bullshit." 

"Pedantic." Gage mutters, dryly. 

Briar walks to the left.

You feel amused.


Why wouldn't it also be *"Shut up,"?

RE: Grammar - Quartz - 10-06-2018

I would really rather not have typos pointed out icly, but it's even worse when someone puts that IC information in their signature presumably to further mock.

Not cool.

RE: Grammar - Husserl - 10-07-2018

Being a jerk ICly is a lot different than being a jerk OOCly.

The first month or so of me playing Haven, I was really excited and heartened because everyone I met seemed to be very firmly on the side of only IC jerkiness, and I wasn't seeing the OOC community toxicity that drove me away from the last MUD I'd played and been an administrator for. I'm starting to realize, however, that my newness was maybe providing me with blinders, since I never joined the Discord and don't have access to the OOC channel in game.

Things like this are a net detriment to any game. What is it even trying to accomplish? Do you want to push players out? Do you want to make it harder for people to react to everything ICly because they now have a bad OOC taste in their mouths? Do you just want to score internet high fives? I only clicked on this thread because I thought it was going to be an actual discussion about grammar, due to the way it was titled. It's pretty obvious that it's just a slam thread with nothing but a tenuous veneer of grammar commentary painted over it.

Everyone is going to have opinions on people's RP, and the more they interact OOCly, the more they'll start to form opinions on the actual players as well. We're human, it's just natural. However, I have never, in my over 20 years of playing MUDs, ever seen anything good come out of players doing anything but acknowledging those opinions to themselves as they form, then trying their best to put them away and give other players the same benefit of the doubt that they'd want. Leaning into the pettiness erodes the game experience for everyone, including those who are just witnessing it happen.

Please stop (general you -- as in anyone reading this) and take a moment to consider what you want for Haven before you act OOCly with or about other players in any format that isn't muttering behind your screen. I like this game and would like to continue enjoying it.  I like to think everyone else here feels the same. Building up others goes a lot further towards that end than trying to tear them down.

RE: Grammar - Kestrel - 10-07-2018

I don't think it's IC to give someone shit IC for an OOC typo. I think that's being a jerk OOCly, especially when you put it in a forum signature to gloat and congratulate yourself for your presumed superiority.

I made this thread because I think if you're gonna make fun of other people's typos, you'd best make sure your own mastery of the English language is impeccable. (And since no one's is, better still, don't do it.)

I don't think it's being a jerk to call someone out for being a jerk, nor to stand up for the wronged party. But I'm comfortable with being called one for doing so, if that's what it takes.

You seem nice, Husserl. Unfortunately in every community we have not-nice people, as I'm sure you will have noticed by now in your 20 years of MUDing. Some communities have staff to police these people, and for better or worse Haven doesn't. This encourages players to self-police. Sometimes, to do this, you can't be nice to not-nice people. It's up to you to decide if you'd be more comfortable in a game with stronger staff oversight, or in one like this.

Personally, I would much prefer stronger staff oversight on issues such as OOC harassment, but there's enough in Haven to keep me here despite it. For now.

RE: Grammar - SubtleBeast - 10-07-2018


The signature really wasn't intended to mock a typo. All of us typo, Daed typoes. I put it in my signature because to me it was funny, it doesn't have anything to do with the player. Someone told someone not to be pedantic and to my mind mumbled the world ICly and that asshole corrected them IC while being pedantic and they then walked away, which amused him. I wasn't trying to throw OOC shade about something all of us do all the time. That moment was just kinda hilarious to me. It was meant to be funny, not as some kind of typo-mock-griefing thing. :/

That being said, I can see from everyone's posts here that I was wrong. So as you can see - signature removed.

I'd debate the ICness of correcting someone, since it's not uncommon for people to correct themselves and/or misunderstandings to happen when someone puts down the wrong word or person's name, etc. in an emote. I probably wouldn't debate it to death though, it's not something I really care about.

I didn't mean to offend/mock/etc. anyone on an OOC level. I thought that was a kind of perfect moment and wanted to share it, that's all. I apologize to the player of said character - it wasn't some kind of OOC attack and I didn't think you'd take it that way, or that anyone would.

Anyways that's all.

RE: Grammar - Husserl - 10-07-2018

Nobody has ever been bullied into being more polite. Meeting perceived jerkiness with more jerkiness just spreads a toxic waste over an entire community.

Having a reasonable, adult conversation without condescension, explaining why certain actions made a person feel a certain way OOC and asking the person to not do it in the future has a surprisingly significant chance of actually working in most cases. Going to someone person to person, by the person who was initially bothered and not a third party, also tends to go a long way. Letting the other party not feel attacked so that they can also express their intent and perspective allows both parties to come out of things feeling okay about what went down. It allows a community to build itself up instead of break itself down.

I'm speaking here as someone who was that policing staff in a game, and also as someone who has been otherwise professionally involved with conflict resolution for well over 20 years as well. Self policing only works when the approach is positive, not negative. Adding negativity to existing negativity only results in something more negative in both math and in people.

No matter how wrong you think another person's actions were, chances are that person wasn't coming from a place where they felt they were being an ass, or they wouldn't have done it in the first place. Treat them like that, and they will be more receptive to what you have to say. Express to them how you feel in response to what happened, not how they are wrong and bad -- especially when you think they are wrong and bad -- and they will be more receptive and more likely to change. Tell someone they are wrong and bad and they'll go on the defensive, they'll feel attacked, and they don't hear you.

Nothing about a conflict over text game actions needs to ever be addressed with anything harsher than that, because seriously, it's a game. If you find yourself falling into the desire to punch back, then you should probably ask yourself what your desired outcome really is, and if what you want to do is going to have a snowball's chance of accomplishing that. I mean, yeah, being ugly to people can sometimes make them just go away, and that can be tempting when you feel like them being gone is the best possible outcome, but in a game with a small community, losing players is almost never good. Even when it is, the actions taken up to the point that the person leaves make an impact on the rest of the community, too. People not involved at all. And when those actions are themselves negative, all that happens is damage to the community. It's never a net positive.

Just some things to keep in mind, for the OP, and for everyone.

RE: Grammar - Amatsuka - 10-07-2018

I mostly agree with Husserl.

I also think it's important that you don't internalize everything. I know everyone is wound differently, but it would be helpful not to be offended as much. This stuff is trivial. Not everything is a slight. Not all slights need to be a battle.

I truly believe that being offended is one of the worst mindsets to have not only in part because of the false conclusions that can be drawn and behavior that can be rationalized thereafter.

It's not a zen place to be.

RE: Grammar - SubtleBeast - 10-07-2018

I'm kind of over this and hope the apology/signature removal will be enough for all of this to stop. I don't think it's really worth all this drama, to be honest.

I will say this. Insulting me, etc. as you often do Kestrel, isn't the way to get to me. I saw your original post and thought - oh okay, it's just Kestrel being an asshole to me because that's what she does. Had you or pof Briar shot me a tell (or more likely an OOC note these days), just saying something basically exactly like what Quartz said (her comment is why I removed the sig, not yours), I would have removed it immediately, because I didn't mean it like that. I'm not trying to be an OOC asshole. I realize I am one. But I'm trying to curb that down, not ramp it up.

In the future, in general, can ya'll just... talk to me when there's an issue? The passive-aggressive complaining on OOC, this kind of thread, etc. are toxic to the game. I'm a fairly open minded person and I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong. I'm not saying everytime someone tells me something that I'm going to lay down and do it, but as with this thing - I had one impression of the signature, everyone else had another. I acknowledge I screwed up and now it's gone. :/ This could have been resolved more privately, with less attention given to the signature, etc. if someone would have just tapped me and said, 'Hey buddy, you're being a dick right now and here's why'.

Anyway, that is kinda out of my control though. I will agree with Husserl though. Self policing via bullying/being negative isn't the way to do it. I mean, sure, if Kestrel had shot me a tell/ooc note and said 'Hey your forum isn't cool, IMO talking about typos IC is bad practice and also it kinda looks like you're gloating to make yourself feel superior in a signature and it's upsetting to the other person's player'. My response, I can guarantee, wouldn't have been like 'Lol, stfu.'. It probably would've been ended right there and I probably would've written a note or sent a tell to the player of the character to apologize.

I don't know. Sig's removed. I apologize and I mean it - I just thought it was a funny moment, I didn't think my character 'one uped' hers or anything. If anything, I thought the signature highlighted what an asshole my character was. I am sorry if her player was upset for it, it really wasn't the intention.

RE: Grammar - Quartz - 10-07-2018

It was difficult to send you a tell, you've been quiet when ever I've checked on Haven.