H7 feels like it’s becoming an RDM

[Luka]

“Alternatively if they have killed you without any good reason. Then you know maybe they are a dangerous lunatic and they need to be put down themselves?”

This is the case, yes. But I don’t like this. “Everyone just goes around killing everyone and no one tells any meaningful stories beyond ‘who has the biggest numbers'” is not what I come to Haven for. This is RDM. I do not want RDM. I don’t want to just kill everyone. Not only will I then be contributing to the problem myself, but those people will just make new characters and continue to RDM as we’ve not established a precedent for how the game is played.

[Luka]

as we’ve NOW* established a precedent for how the game is played.

[Matias]

The game is barely staffed in terms of active control of in-character situations via NPCs or commentary.

We have 3 strong deterrents to bad faith actors: take all their shit, maim them, or kill them.

Ironically taking all their shit is financially ruinous and might actually affect their combat abilities. Maiming them is not as easy to undo as death and is a permanent impediment. Death is actually mechanically the least significant thing. Like I said irony.

Now if a player/character or group of player/characters believe someone is doing stuff they do not like in RP, but they are not giving them what they want OOC (this is the give the victor their moment of weakness suggestion) than killing them sends a pretty clear message. These actions and this response equal this outcome.

So in the case of someone like RG who is notoriously problematic. They make a character. Try and attack the same group or person multiple times and then refuses to RP out their loss state of being beaten and taken prisoner. They will simply kill her character. The tool exists and if they killed someone who anyone cared about they will rez them but the message has been sent right. Do not do THAT whatever THAT was.

So 100% if someone hunts Luka (or anyone else down) and mercs them for little to no reason. The appropriate response is probably to turn around and merc them back or maim them (which as I noted is even worse punishment).

[Rev]

I would just like to say your comments are awesome bean and very astute. It is very hard to steer any story in a direction both parties would enjoy when the complaining party absolutely refuses to lose every single time. You are essentially saying we’re only allowed to RP with your char when your char is winning and we must give up RP when your character is losing because you don’t enjoy losing.

[Luka]

I mean, yeah, if someone is acting in bad faith they should probably be deterred Matias, but the people who are getting killed to my knowledge have not been acting in bad faith. Obviously the rules are flipped when people are acting in bad faith or we have an RG situation going on, but I’m pretty confident that’s not what’s been happening here.

Also, Rev, I appreciate your frustrations, I really do. I’m not going to argue whether or not I am doing what you say since whilst I don’t feel I do it quite to the extent you’re making out that I do, I certainly do what you’re describing at least a little.

What I’d like to argue is instead that, if you want to tell an antagonistic story with someone who doesn’t want you to tell an antagonistic story with them, maybe just don’t tell that story with them. Sometimes people do just prefer to be in the driver’s seat of a story, and that might not be to your tastes, but that is okay.

Upping the anti and doubling down in the hopes that if you inflict enough mechanical consequences on them that they’ll start wanting to tell stories that have you in the driver’s seat is not usually a working strategy.

[Rev]

I keep trying NOT to tell a story with you unfortunately you keep delivering yourself and trying to attack my character over and over again. So please how do I prevent that? Can I have a make warning that says No howlers please?

[Luka]

Also maims are not permanent, you just do ‘procedure restore’ in a medical facility and if you have 350 favor (Which is a chunk of change but not super loads) you’ll be restored. Your LF comes back too, which is nice.

[Luka]

Who is your character, Rev? We can certainly sort something out

[bean]

i like that you have no idea who rev’s character is (i don’t either), because you’ve apparently attacked so many people repeatedly that you just can’t keep track of your enemies are anymore.

yeah i am not surprised you got killed 3 times. i haven’t even been killed once. the problem isn’t the playerbase, it’s you.

[Luka]

I can tell you’re upset with me about something, I’d encourage you to reach out to me in a more private medium so we can talk things out.

[Luka]

We can also talk things out here, if you’d prefer, just concerned it might be a bit too spammy if we had a conversation like that on the forums.

[Lykaia]

The primary issue observed is a frequent reliance on OOC interactions to address IC consequences. When facing adverse outcomes, such as being killed repeatedly, the response tends toward externalizing responsibility rather than examining possible IC mistakes or improvements. Rather than seeking IC explanations for survival strategies or character improvements, complaints about the playerbase are posted publicly on forums or thrown at a specific player

Additionally, during IC capture scenarios, OOC emotes and behaviors are noted, including ignoring established lore, such as silver affecting your character, and engaging in threats and entitlement rather than maintaining character consistency or accountability. When facing defeat, there have been instances of using OOC notes and tells that attempt to gaslight players your group doesn’t like.

Another significant issue is the OOC coordination of resources (such as coin gathering) rather than conducting such activities through IC interactions and lacking consistency with your society’s goals. This pattern consistently breaks immersion and detracts from the enjoyment and integrity of the RP experience for all involved.

Effective RP relies heavily on IC accountability and consequences. When characters face repeated adverse outcomes due to their IC actions, such as provoking dangerous entities, it is crucial to approach these situations ICly rather than resorting to OOC methods to circumvent consequences. Repeatedly engaging threats ICly without adapting strategies inevitably leads to negative IC outcomes, and consistently using OOC measures to avoid or mitigate these outcomes undermines the spirit and immersion of the game.

[Luka]

Lykaia, respectfully, you are the one RDMing the hardest. I understand everyone has reasons for why they do the things they do. But the onus is on you as a player to act in ways that makes the game better, despite what reasons you might be able to cook up in order to not act that way.

[Entropy]

Why is it on her?

If you have behaved poorly, made it clear you only wanna tea bag, and cannot take a loss, why do you deserve consideration? If she has let you go before, and you attacked again, the rule of fool me once applies. Further, in a game like Haven, where people cannot understand basic cues, like quit bothering me, and I find your behavior reprehensible, there comes a point where a gentle hand no longer works. Just because you died doesn’t mean people instantly forget, and if your behaviors (IC and OOC) do not change after the first one, clearly you need a reminder of how you got there the previous time.

Haven has traditionally rewarded the person that goes hard the soonest. Consistently, when I am gentle with people, it bites me in the rear. So if you had attacked me, and I let you go, and you attacked me again, and then I said I would keep you, and you went Difficult Prisoner or started spouting off OOCly, I would feel very comfortable offing your character and letting you try again with a less obnoxious attitude. I wouldn’t necessarily actually do it, but I would certainly not feel bad for you if someone else did it.

I warned you before H6 ended that you were gonna have a rough time in H7 with no sanctuary and a huge chip on your shoulder. It is as the scrolls foretold. Now, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and start figuring out how you improve things for others before demanding they improve things for you.

[Matias]

So in just a very generic generalized sense.

I will say that if you want to be an aggressive/bully/combative antagonist. It helps to establish very clear cut boundaries. You want to signal to people. Hey I am here to kick ass and chew bubblegum but I am not here to piss in your cheerios. Now you have said that you feel character death is not something you would really go for. If your character conveys this information it would help alleviate the uncertainty. As I stated unless communication and dialogue reassure people that a hostile character ‘gets the message’ they are going to err to the side of murder murder death.

So lets use Matias (since people obviously know I am Matias) I think he has done a moderate job of going. No touchie the students on Windermere grounds. While he has rarely if ever defended a random student say off the grounds. He has even said oh you might kill a student, well don’t do it on campus or in front of me. He is signaling. I do not care just do not cross my very clear boundary bubble. Likewise if I was going to be a more aggressive like bully I might do something like… Oh I’m not going to kill you. But you won’t know where you start and my mindfuckery begins. Bwhahahaha.

I have signaled hey I am probably going to imprint, compulsion, curse item, or whatever you. You know what to expect and so you don’t have to be like omg is this lunatic going to kill me the next time I lose a fight? You might hate imprints and stuff and be like if you do that I will rock your world with my 10 best friends. But now you’re communicating and signaling interest, disinterest, it is still IC, and no one feels like they need to murder anyone right? Maybe?

[Author]

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