Invitation & Higher Tiers

[Mazerin]

I guess there is a degree of forcing yourself into interactions, vampires need to feed for example so for all intents and purposes they might steal a bite off you even if maybe you don’t want to be bitten by one, same goes for higher-tier supes that got to feed on you so they don’t get debuffs, if that’s still a thing. You can still force yourself into interactions while giving agency to the other person, in my opinion at least.

Generally though I agree that characters are there for meaningful roleplay (in whatever shape and form that might take), but from what it seems to me it’s not like higher-tier characters have a long shelf life? If you disregard the Wild Hunt which will take them and gut their tier, there’s acedia. And if you disregard that, there’s other maintenance mechanics. So looking at it from mechanical perspective it seems like higher-tier characters are designed to be short-lived but impactful roles that require constant action to maintain themselves, with higher tier meaning shorter lifespan in return for the ability to practically have storyteller-lite tools.

I don’t claim to be an expert since I haven’t played a T3+ character on H7 yet, and my only experience was a natural T3 on H6, but it feels like the general intention here is that corrupt characters act as a bridge between the monster guest’s explosive power, packaged into a character meant for more flavor antagonism.

As far as the entire convo of this thread goes though, my opinion on this is that the invitiation gain probably needs to be tweaked a bit, but it’s not like I feel it is somehow bad from design standpoint.

[Matias]

To explain the forced RP comment.

You have antag RP it can be consensual where someone knowingly puts their character into situations which present them with risk. It can be non-consensual where someone is abducted from a highly secure do not bother me bunker.

The greater the negative impact of the antag RP the more likely you will have to find people who are not putting themselves out there for antag RP.

What do I mean?

If antag RP is, I mug you, tell you that you suck, and then take something from you while giving you some bruises. That is essentially 1hour to a week to recover from depending on factors like what I took how bad I messed you up whatever.

If antag RP is, I mug you, bump you up 1-2 invitation tiers and the do the rest of the stuff. That is now days or weeks of recovery time just for the invitation not counting anything else.

Someone that would be okay with being afflicted with negative consequences for hours or days is not looking at consequences going days to week. Thus you will have less willing participants in antag RP and more salty victims that will go. I got 1-2 invitation and the RP wasn’t even that good. Complain complain complain. Lame lame lame. Then eventual ganksquads.

[Valkuk]

So, I’ll preface this by saying I doubt I’ve played a significant amount of time around T3s for my invitation to have been greatly impacted, but from the things I’ve been hearing around from other players. It seems that invitation gains are a bit inconsistent, and sure, we don’t know the code or the logic behind it, so all we can do is really speculate about why it happens, but we have the results. Some people aren’t too affected by play with T3s, some others are to a point they think it’s unplayable.

Now, something I mentioned back when H7 was announcements, was my worry that invitation would cause higher tiers to isolate even more, coming from H6, in which they already did so. Sure, acedia would be there to fight it, and things weren’t as grim as I made them out to be initially, but as things stand right now, I can say I notice people not playing around T3s because of the invitation. I’ve heard it from T3 players, I’ve heard it from players that avoid T3s, we even have it on this thread. At least a significant amount of the playerbase is worried enough about their invitation that higher tiers are avoided, maybe not entirely or completely, but a decent amount.

If we went back to H6 times, this would likely translate in “I have to feed, I got, gank someone and antag”. I don’t think you can do that any longer. Antag has become a large opt-in system, which I don’t think is a bad thing, but when the thing you want to fight is invitation, a system that not only characters want to avoid, like feeding in H6, but also the players want to avoid, you’ll find less and less people going into that opt-in.
If the outcome of antag is “I lost a bit of lf and my char has had a bad time”, maybe some people will play along in order to have realism or to storytell, maybe even because they enjoy the character’s bad time. If the outcome is that you build invitation and at I3, the relic you spent two months working to get gets stolen, or something along the lines, I doubt the player will be as eager to accept.

I think a couple of the issues why players might avoid it is how the different invitation powers are distributed. I think some people are likely seeing fast spikes of invitation without understanding where it comes from. And I think, maybe in some cases, T3s might be generating too much invitation. By the feedback I hear around, it seems like higher tiers past this will be rare, not because of the Hunt or how they’ve taken power from them, but because less and less people will play with you.

Again, can’t say I have much personal experience with it. And this is just how I see the issue, maybe in a month or two things have drastically change and I’m completely wrong in my assessment, but to me trying to make high tiers not isolate while also making the pressence of even the smallest high tier more impactful and worrying, just feels counter-intuitive.
I like the system of invitation, and I like the idea in order to feel the monstrosity feel more real, but I think in the way its tuned right now, it’s not really giving them a pressence as much as isolating the characters little by little. Storytelling and roleplay can only be so rewarding, and if the drawback for doing it is severe on the players, the incentive dies down and is replaced by discouragement. Sure, another person by person case, but it’s the way I see it.

Anyways, that’s my two cents on how I see things as of right now, hopefully things change, or hopefully I’m wrong about this, but we’ll just have to wait and see.

[Ckaleb]

Let’s uh not dismiss me on something more than month removed out of context, especially with red herrings, and have a productive discussion by responding to what’s being said with less victimization, please, regardless on how frustrated we are with the subject matter.

On that note, of making things relevant, after understanding invitation a little more as a means of how it allowed other characters to interact with mine, I’m really glad with how it operates, but also understand the fear it gives other players. I gave the system a chance and allowed players opportunity to effect me. It’s an awkward balance, and really tough generally, to allow other players to effect how you’re telling a story. But it’s also just core to any cooperative storytelling application.

Mind you, this was my decision to opt-in to content. I had the privilege of, er, being tortured in such a fantastic way and being given many story beats in lieu of it and it’s all in all been delightful. Something that couldn’t have happened if I hadn’t engaged in the system. In fact, all of my invitation at the time came from bargains I had made in the first two weeks of the game, and a flat +2 had been bugged onto me as a Fabled character.

Still. Bearing all of that in mind, what changes would you suggest to be made in light of what you know? I think we have a loose idea, each of us, what problems we might have with the system even if we disagree on the parts. I do think it would be more productive to try and impress some solutions to aid constructively in having the problem solved.

[Rev]

So for me the whole invitation thing is too punishing and too isolating for T3s.

My character has two T3 friends. These people did not start as T3. They were friends at T2 . The problem is that when they become T3 it’s not like they did something horrible and evil. They just got slightly stronger.

If there is an announcement that T3’s when becoming T3’s have to do some kindof RP where they essentially rise up and become the green goblin – Great. Then my character who is a nice person, can be like ohhh you did all this evil stuff I don’t know if I can be friends anymore.

But right now, they are just slightly stronger. They’re not doing anything different. And it feels punishing that I can gain invitation just by them saying Hi how are you. And me responding.

Like showing compassion or care for a T3 gets you invitation.

And I just posted in ask the staff because some of this stuff seems ridiculous for my character to say

Hey I can’t talk to you anymore sorry you’re too evil (even though you haven’t done anything) and if I talk to you people will be able to climb through my bedroom window.

Hey I bargained my memory for how to play chess so I can be more pure. ???

Oh I want to stop being so tempted by evil so I guess I’ll have to become evil??

My character RPs with multiple T2’s for hours every day. Mundane RP. And can’t lose invitation because she replies to texts of Hi how are you.

I also don’t know if it makes it worse that she’s an angel and previously people would tiershift her down to 1.5. Which I don’t know if it makes it so you can’t rp with T2s to drop invitation but that is really kindof dumb.

Also why would being helpless and captured by a T3.. make you want to invite more evil?

It just doesn’t make sense to me.

[Rev]

Also in the past t3 people are people who are a little bit fallen right?

You’re still trying to be a good person but you got tempted by power and maybe you kill a person every now and then.

Like a veteran werewolf or vampire can be T3 without taking exsanguinating or lunacy. That’s just a person whose old. That’s not tempted by power. That’s just growing into power.

To say these people have to RP as ‘evil’ is kindof strange to me too.

[Maina]

Werewolves require also being active in the supernatural world, like most Veterans. Just being one long enough isn’t enough.

The vampire ones do read like they will just go more corrupt over time no matter what, but also one that gets that old is going to have killed someone. I don’t really see a 500 year old vampire who still feeds off animals for all that time.

Anyway, I’m just one person. But going into H7, I got the impression that Invitation is partly intended to just rise over the lifespan of a PC. And bargains are for deliberately increasing it, with the XP bonuses being a little extra. Nova said as much with bargains, though maybe I only inferred the ever-increasing part.

Anyway, the point of this isn’t to say it does work this way, but more that I went into the game expecting Invitation to be unavoidable. I haven’t avoided anyone for their tier. It never even occurred to me a t3 might have that much impact. I’ve played with a few, even had scenes and patrols. No extended one-on-ones, but that’s just because that’s how it went. Not deliberate avoidance.

And despite going into the game thinking it inevitable and making no particular effort to avoid it, I have I0 after 700 hours. Not changed since chargen.

So mostly, Invitation feels opt-in to me right now, contrary to my expectations for the game.

If T3s are this debilitating, my suggestion would be as follows:

Have RP with a high-tier give mostly personal invitation, not global. Give global only if the RP specifically justifies it. The personal invitation system is cool but woefully underutilized, and this way you mostly only risk someone you consider a good enough writer to spend extended time with, not just every person on the grid.

[Mirabel]

If there is an announcement that T3’s when becoming T3’s have to do some kindof RP where they essentially rise up and become the green goblin – Great. Then my character who is a nice person, can be like ohhh you did all this evil stuff I don’t know if I can be friends anymore.

But right now, they are just slightly stronger. They’re not doing anything different. And it feels punishing that I can gain invitation just by them saying Hi how are you. And me responding.

Like showing compassion or care for a T3 gets you invitation.

And I just posted in ask the staff because some of this stuff seems ridiculous for my character to say

Hey I can’t talk to you anymore sorry you’re too evil (even though you haven’t done anything) and if I talk to you people will be able to climb through my bedroom window.

Hey I bargained my memory for how to play chess so I can be more pure. ???

Oh I want to stop being so tempted by evil so I guess I’ll have to become evil??

I think the idea is that players would have their characters change as they rise in tier to portray their declining morals, but the game doesn’t do much to encourage this or even remind you that you’re meant to. There’s basically just some text in a helpfile telling the reader that higher tier = more evil. Since this concept isn’t conveyed to players in any tangible way, it’s easy to forget or willfully forgo it.

It’s one of the consequences of having a progression system where the method with which you progress is mostly unrelated to the things your character is actually doing. Tiering up just takes karma which can be earned in all sorts of inane ways that have nothing whatsoever to do with a character’s growing power. Since there’s no requirement of evil deeds to enter the evil tiers, the onus is on the player to take it upon themselves to characterize it; and unless you’re deliberately playing an antagonist, there isn’t much incentive to actually live up to that. It’s easier and safer to just not do it.

One could say that it’s a good roleplayer’s responsibility to abide by the lore, but the game’s systems have a duty to guide players towards that. Haven’s systems rarely do. If it were a more serious roleplaying game, like an RPI, there may have been RP staff charged with reviewing a player’s RP and judging whether they’ve qualified for tiering up. Since Haven is effectively unstaffed, it would either take coded systems that track character actions (we do have a tally of “antag emotes,” for example), or else just live with the fact that only some players are willing to shoulder the burden – and, often, disadvantage – of adhering to the lore.

[Rev]

The problem is, even in previous reiterations, antagonists need friends, allies and buddies too. You might not be strong but you can make friends with someone strong or make a bargain and they will protect you. Right now you’re punished so heavily even from just casually chatting with them.

And because there is no ‘rising event’ when you become T3, there is no plausible IC reason. Oh hey your aura changed to fallen we can’t be friends and I’m going to run out of the room anytime I see a T3 seems like a horrible way to encourage RP and stories.

Not to mention if that pisses off the person who you’re leaving from, they can just kidnap you, force antag RP onto you… and raise your invitation anyways.

And at this point if you do antag you then have entire societies who will let you antag once or twice and be like, well okay lets just kill this guy. And you better hope you have friends who will resurrect you because there’s no sanctuary protecting you. It just makes it so that the only people people are willing to antag on.. are like legion characters because they’re disposable.

[Lykaia]

There is merit in the idea proposed by Matias of setting them apart through a legendary, with a Tier 5 holding three being exceptionally formidable and distinctly separated from others. A twelve-hour threshold would also be sufficient per week.

For context, those familiar with my character will already know she has consistently operated with a pragmatic disregard for collateral, including the deaths of innocents, aligning with the concept of moral Tier 3. This stance was present from the outset of character creation, even at T3-1, as it would not have made sense for her to adopt a “nicer” role while still in active service.

When the negative modifier was removed, it became clear that T3 naturals were moral Tier 2.5. This was unexpected but logical: they were placed distinctly apart from supernaturals, functioning in a manner where they could cause as much harm as good (in the best case) or more harm than good (in the worst case). This allowed them to integrate effectively within the Temple, consistent with how the Temple was originally intended to function.

On August 3rd, however, this was altered without announcement, shortly after a transition from the Hand to the Temple. The change undercut the reasoning for leaving the Hand and joining the Temple, and gave the impression of an impulsive decision lacking deeper consideration. Prior to this shift, T3 naturals had been viable within the Temple.

It is also worth noting that, at the time, invitation did not escalate at the rate observed now. The increase may coincide with background adjustments to appearance numbers, though this remains circumstantial.

Private invitation has also been considered as an alternative approach. A petition was drafted, withdrawn, and reconsidered several times. The concept remains appealing, but it is uncertain whether it aligns with Tyr’s broader design intent.

[Rev]

Furthermore does Tyr really care that much about how people act in these moral tiers? Because my char can be tiershifted between T1.5 to t2.5 without my knowledge. If we’re supposed to act differently why wouldn’t it tell you? Hey you’ve been tiershifted up act more evil now.

[Seraphina]

As someone who can also be tiershifted, I was recently shifted down to 1.5. And i cannot use bargain purity at 1.5 to bargain down my invite. Now my character is only at I3 at the moment, but I rp with a T3 a lot, and my time with T2s has done nothing to lower my invite that has been an i3 for at least a month. I worry about using bargain again for strength and get boosted to something atronomical.

I think that moral tier and invite should be separated somehow when it comes to bargaining purity at the very least. Wouldn’t a moral tier 1.5 want to lower their invite.

[Author]

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