[Luka]

I mean, yeah, if someone is acting in bad faith they should probably be deterred Matias, but the people who are getting killed to my knowledge have not been acting in bad faith. Obviously the rules are flipped when people are acting in bad faith or we have an RG situation going on, but I’m pretty confident that’s not what’s been happening here.

Also, Rev, I appreciate your frustrations, I really do. I’m not going to argue whether or not I am doing what you say since whilst I don’t feel I do it quite to the extent you’re making out that I do, I certainly do what you’re describing at least a little.

What I’d like to argue is instead that, if you want to tell an antagonistic story with someone who doesn’t want you to tell an antagonistic story with them, maybe just don’t tell that story with them. Sometimes people do just prefer to be in the driver’s seat of a story, and that might not be to your tastes, but that is okay.

Upping the anti and doubling down in the hopes that if you inflict enough mechanical consequences on them that they’ll start wanting to tell stories that have you in the driver’s seat is not usually a working strategy.

[Luka]

“Alternatively if they have killed you without any good reason. Then you know maybe they are a dangerous lunatic and they need to be put down themselves?”

This is the case, yes. But I don’t like this. “Everyone just goes around killing everyone and no one tells any meaningful stories beyond ‘who has the biggest numbers'” is not what I come to Haven for. This is RDM. I do not want RDM. I don’t want to just kill everyone. Not only will I then be contributing to the problem myself, but those people will just make new characters and continue to RDM as we’ve not established a precedent for how the game is played.

[Luka]

I don’t want an OOC consensus sanctuary, I just think PC death should be something treated with more weight and done to support stories. There is a whole load of grey area BETWEEN* “No one can kill anyone ever because mechanics physically restrain you from doing so” and the RDM we’ve got going on right now.

[Luka]

I don’t want an OOC consensus sanctuary, I just think PC death should be something treated with more weight and done to support stories. There is a whole load of grey area because “No one can kill anyone ever because mechanics physically restrain you from doing so” and the RDM we’ve got going on right now.

[Luka]

I’m sure I even agree with killing in that situation Matias. Even in a game where antagonism and even competitive antagonism are common, you still shouldn’t be RDMing. Luka is aggressive, and he is antagonistic, but he hasn’t ever killed anyone he’s gotten his hands on, and he wouldn’t because I don’t think it would create a good story if it did.

If we make the rule to be “You can kill people so long as you can come up with a reason for why you killed them” then people will just continue to RDM because it is not at all difficult to pull a casus belli out of your ass at any given moment for any given reason. The onus needs to be on players to not be trying to justify ways to kill people, and instead to be justifying ways to not steer the story in directions where everyone is enjoying the story being told. And if they can’t do that, they need to start trying to figure out how to extract themselves from that story as seamlessly as possible. RDM is not the answer.

[Luka]

Rev, I 100% agree with everything you’ve said here. If someone is making it clear they don’t want to be in the scene, you should remove them from the scene.

However, whilst I agree with everything you said, there was an implication you didn’t say, which was “You should end the scene by killing their character”, which I do not agree with. There are several ways to end a scene with someone, up to and including wordlessly removing their binds and booting them out onto the street. I get that combat can be risky, and people are upset when they run those risks, and then don’t feel like they’re getting the IC rewards they want for having won after taking those risks, but RDMing is not the answer. There is lots you can do. You can adddesc, you can roughup, you can steal items, you can villain monologue for the two hours it takes for them to undo their binds. There’s lots of options here that don’t involve RDM. Saying that you only possible option for dealing with someone who wants out of a scene is to get them out of that scene by killing them seems awfully unimaginative to me.

Also, hundred percent agree with Bean. If you want people to give you good victim RP, you need to first give them good antag RP. Expecting someone to chug an energy drink and get on their A game to RP out their screams and squirms for you after you won a combat with them just because you won that combat is not enough.

That being said, this isn’t a personal attack against anyone who’s antagged me, I will 100% agree that losing combats often (But not always!) tilts the fuck out of my desire to RP and a large part of that IS ON ME, that is certainly a personal flaw of mine. But I also think a lot of people are like this at least a little and I don’t think this is something people deserve to be RDM’d over.

[Luka]

Close up of Luka

[Luka]

The forums are telling me there’s been two replies to this threat but for some reason I can’t see either of them 🙁

[Luka]

Though to add to that, I’d also just check if that person wasn’t simply having a bad day. There are a lot of situations, especially in H7, you can catch someone right as they’re about to log off, or right after they’ve already had an exhausting scene, or in any number of situations where they’re just not interested in further RP at that time. If someone acts like that consistantly, like you seem to think I do, then yeah you should just try and avoid playing with them, but also keep in mind that there’s a person behind the computer, and that person has a life, and it’s probably a life complicated enough that there could be a lot more explanations beyond them simply being lame for why they’re trying to get out of a scene.

[Luka]

So, firstly, let’s try and keep things productive. You’re clearly upset about something, so please feel free to reach out to me about whatever it is sometime and we can see if we can iron it.

Secondly though, I don’t have any alts on H7, I’ve only been playing Luka, and I don’t ever play more than one character at once, or at least, haven’t in my time since I started playing Haven. If a character you thought was being played by me did something to upset you there’s not really much I can say towards that, you’d need to talk to whoever it was that was playing that character.

As for me going difficult prisoner a lot, I can also confirm I’ve not been doing that. I’ve gone difficult prisoner once since H7 started. That was today, and I did it 20 minutes into the scene since I couldn’t figure out what the command was and had to search helpfiles to find it.

To actually answer your question though, about what to do if you’re dealing with someone who doesn’t seem interested in writing a story with you in which they are receiving antagonism from you. I’d just recommend to not story tell with that person. Don’t take their plot hooks, don’t reach out to their character. If they insist on interacting with you despite that I’d even say to go so far as to reach out OOC and explain that the vibes aren’t there and you’d like to focus on stories that don’t involve their character.

[Luka]

I think in the instance of someone throwing up difficult prisoner in a good faith way it shouldn’t have any impact on the outcome of a scene, yeah.

If you suspect the person doing it is doing it tactically, and isn’t genuinely uncomfortable / too exhasuted for the scene, then yeah, that’s something you should take into account, but outside of that it’s the classic “My guy” dillema. What’s more important? That realism is kept perfect, and all characters act exactly as they would given their defined characteristics? Or that everyone at the table is having fun?

[Luka]

The purpose of difficult prisoner is more so to flag up, and provide resistance to, scenes which you aren’t comfortable writing out. Whether it’s for content reasons, because you don’t like the person you’re scening with, or you’re just done playing the game for the day and don’t have any energy left to expend on engaging creatively with a video game.

I don’t think it’s supposed to be a “get out of jail free card”, especially in H7 which has a larger focus on mechanically intensive PVP and managing to corner someone into a situation where you could kill someone isn’t something trivial. If going difficult prisoner made it harder to kill you, I think we’d just see everyone go difficult prisoner at the beginning of every scene, which would be kind of lame.

I’d say if someone goes difficult prisoner just don’t try to get any more RP out of them. If you were going to execute them, execute them. If you were gunna rough them up, rough them up. If you were gunna keep them in a cell for a while, take them off to the cell. As long as you’re not increasing the mechanical consequence you’re giving someone because you’re upset they didn’t want to RP with you, you’re probably fine, and I think difficult prisoner as it is is perfectly fit for purpose for flagging up when someone is feeling like that.

[Luka]

The Howlers whilst they were being brainstormed, only three of these characters made it to grid. RIP Grug the timeswept Neanderthal (Timeswept doesn’t let you go far enough back in time to make a Neanderthal, sadly)

[Luka]

[Luka]

@mojojo Bit late, but since you asked I feel the way you’re lowering yourself down to Kaiser’s level is by engaging with the arguments at all.

Each time you reply to another one of Kaiser’s posts you’re making yourself marginally more frustrated, each time you restate your issues with him you’re magnifying those issues in your own mind by a slight margin.

The issue you two are discussing is not of note when placed next to something like RPless kills. There probably is some kind of discussion to be had around the staking, but because you two have been arguing about it so heatedly if’s been built up into something much more than it is.

Each time you take the bait and respond to Kaiser you’re feeding the drama. It’s fine to just say “This guy is in a bad mood, they’re going to be acting irationally for a bit, I’m going to let them do that over there whilst I do mine over here” and then bring it up later if it really is something so important to you that you feel it needs to be adressed.

You are actively killing your ability to engage peacefully with a part of your community in the future. You’re creating hard feelings within yourself towards Kaiser that are going to last much longer than this argument will last.

Please don’t feel like I’m singling you out here by the way, Kaiser is very much doing the same thing here. I do the same thing as well when I’m heated. It’s only human. But that doesn’t mean it’s correct.

There’s a lot going on in this thread, if there was something else I was supposed to respond to but I didn’t please let me know, I kind of skimmed the last few pages when I realized it was more discussion on stake and illusion mechanics.

[Author]

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