[Lykaia]

It was brought to my attention that the number of Legion units appearing in raids seems to have decreased since the death of the last Legion Lieutenant. It’s unclear whether the two events are related, but based on recent observations, the reduction in numbers does appear consistent from what I saw and others seen, too.

[Lykaia]

This thread was started to exchange perspectives on how raids currently play out, not to attack staff or the game. Discussion naturally includes frustration, suggestions, and analysis; that’s how balance and design improve over time. No one here is denying the effort involved, we’re just looking at how those efforts feel in practice during play.

[Lykaia]

Feedback is part of any healthy game community. Critique of systems is not the same as disparaging the people who built them, and raising pain points is often how the game improves. Haven thrives because of collaborative storytelling, but that includes players being able to say when mechanics are overwhelming or discouraging.

This is a also a discussion space. We’re discussing and considering these points mutually, not dismissing staff effort.

[Lykaia]

There is a general expectation among some players that I would hunt down 63rd lieutenant guest characters. To date, I have not assumed that role. Such proceeding would typically follow a simple pattern: breach the location, locate the target, eliminate them, and withdraw, a lethal strike rather than an attempt at capture.

Tactical or material benefit from capture is usually limited unless the guest carries a useful legendary. Most guest builds are combat-oriented and lack resources of wider utility. Moreover, many legendary effects are unavailable to Bloodline artifacts and therefore inaccessible to large parts of the playerbase. As a result, those legendaries could effectively substitute for services formerly provided by the goblin market, and it is reasonable to expect some groups may eventually create legion guest characters to secure specific benefits for their clique.

[Lykaia]

Guest characters are temporary by design. Given the threat posed by the 63rd, it is both in-character and consistent with established lore that they may be killed during conflicts. In this case, the outcome may not have been the most satisfying experience for the guest player, but it remains a reasonable and justifiable development within the setting.

The opportunity to eliminate a temporary character was taken, and while it is unfortunate that the guest’s developing story was cut short, this is an inherent risk of playing a temporary character.

[Lykaia]

It is unclear how naturals are able to fimagine.

[Lykaia]

The Fabled aura is visibly distinct. The monster expressed “wanting someone who sparkles,” which was later interpreted as a possible reference to the aura, leading to mentions of Fabled from other players. No direct inquiry was made to confirm if this was what the monster wanted.

[Lykaia]

Based on experience, the rate is approximately 15%. Fleshformed and Powered Armor have already been confirmed as non-functional, suggesting that most, if not all, professional legendaries should be assumed to be incompatible. This also means naturals likely cannot have any bloodline.

[Lykaia]

There is merit in the idea proposed by Matias of setting them apart through a legendary, with a Tier 5 holding three being exceptionally formidable and distinctly separated from others. A twelve-hour threshold would also be sufficient per week.

For context, those familiar with my character will already know she has consistently operated with a pragmatic disregard for collateral, including the deaths of innocents, aligning with the concept of moral Tier 3. This stance was present from the outset of character creation, even at T3-1, as it would not have made sense for her to adopt a “nicer” role while still in active service.

When the negative modifier was removed, it became clear that T3 naturals were moral Tier 2.5. This was unexpected but logical: they were placed distinctly apart from supernaturals, functioning in a manner where they could cause as much harm as good (in the best case) or more harm than good (in the worst case). This allowed them to integrate effectively within the Temple, consistent with how the Temple was originally intended to function.

On August 3rd, however, this was altered without announcement, shortly after a transition from the Hand to the Temple. The change undercut the reasoning for leaving the Hand and joining the Temple, and gave the impression of an impulsive decision lacking deeper consideration. Prior to this shift, T3 naturals had been viable within the Temple.

It is also worth noting that, at the time, invitation did not escalate at the rate observed now. The increase may coincide with background adjustments to appearance numbers, though this remains circumstantial.

Private invitation has also been considered as an alternative approach. A petition was drafted, withdrawn, and reconsidered several times. The concept remains appealing, but it is uncertain whether it aligns with Tyr’s broader design intent.

[Lykaia]

Acedia is designed to encourage antagonism; this serves as its driving force and is the basis on which others earn invitation. Stat tier caps were already a component of the system in H6, and H7 provides more methods to significantly mitigate them.

An example from H6 illustrates the above: one character pursued the approach described above, isolating themselves with no allies and generating widespread hostility by forcing interactions into others’ roleplay. The situation ultimately ended with the character’s death. No one liked this character. This reflects the intended purpose of guests, particularly monster guests more. Standard characters, by contrast, are meant to function as roleplay participants within the world instead. If a character is alienated and no one engages with them, they are no longer contributing to roleplay in any meaningful way.

[Lykaia]

Ckaleb
Participant
July 12, 2025 at 9:40 pm

I’ve been ruthlessly removing myself from the room when tier 3s are around, and am probably one of the most active players on the grid. I don’t do Fabled quests either. Truly, there’s something missing in the feedback with the system.

This provides sufficient reason to cease replying.

[Lykaia]

The helpfile remains unchanged from its version on the old website. While general usage may have been expanded, the lore context continues to identify it as a Temple invention. The automoderation system currently prevents linking directly to the archived site.

[Lykaia]

T3 humans currently find greater acceptance and utility within the Hand than within the Temple, despite the Temple being the faction explicitly responsible for augmenting soldiers into being powerful.

[Lykaia]

Faction membership is highly incentivized, as each faction offers a specific and significant reward to its members. The difference in strength between a T3 and a T2 is minimal, amounting to a slow +10 in a discipline, something any character with two combat foci can offset which. The first three foci are affordable before tiering up, so a T3 is only marginally stronger than a T2. Relics, which are relatively easy to steal, make the difference even less meaningful. In practical terms, two well-played T2s can defeat a T3 with little difficulty. The notion of T3 characters being substantially more powerful does not hold up mechanically.

T3s are expected to generate story and increase the sense of danger in the world. However, this expectation cannot be fulfilled if their presence forces constant combat in a setting intended to emphasize political play. Roleplay rewards are derived from story development, but meaningful storylines cannot emerge if other players consistently avoid T3s due to the excessive costs of interaction.

Adjusting the rate at which characters gain invitation based on their Tier could help balance progression. However, a similar issue existed in H6, where stronger characters were actually easier to maintain. In practice, there was no increased need to feed, and this imbalance likely carried over into the current iteration’s acedia system as well.

[Lykaia]

Playing as a T3 has proven to be a largely negative experience. Long-term roleplay and story development with others becomes nearly impossible. Even a private two-to-four-hour scene between just two characters can trigger a +1 increase. There are cases where a single text message exchange can result in an immediate increase. For example, rescuing a severely injured faction member over the course of forty minutes was enough to grant an invitation. While this could be argued as situationally appropriate, the game is designed to emphasize politics. Political maneuvering becomes impractical if nearly every interaction risks increasing invitation. Attempting to negotiate for Borough claims or coordinate actions, such as operations against the 63rd, often leads others to avoid contact entirely in order to protect their invitation.

Faction play suffers heavily under these mechanics. The Hand is effectively the only faction where a T3 is fully welcomed, especially natural T3. For the temple, the situation is restrictive: a soldier who has undergone Temple augmentation is classified as a demolisher without a chip, which prevents gaining standing, using half the order commands, or attaining rank. Other players may choose not to work with such characters at all. Efforts to plan missions, contribute to investigations, or sit at the planning table can trigger further invitation increases. This discourages collaboration, as other players are penalized for involvement. Even participating in larger group scenes is insufficient to balance the rate at which invitation accumulates. Once it rises past a point, players from righteous factions may go so far as to completely exclude T3s from play and it is absurd that the pro-supernatural faction is the only non-restricted place to be for a natural T3.

This environment severely limits opportunities for meaningful story progression and makes roleplay as a T3 feel unrewarding, as does interacting with them. If we interacted and you havn’t gained invitation, this is because I have not endeavored story effort on you.

[Author]

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