No RP Killing

[Maina]

1. They are Guests. Not main characters. Their longevity is not assumed or assured. It’s in the name.
2. Nova has been on record as saying they exist to make the threat of Legion-controlled territories real. They exist to be a threat.
3. They have a host of powers that can no-contest, without any oversight, ruin any number of PCs, so they are indeed an extreme threat.
4. They are the only ‘antagonist’ faction. They are not just evil, they are anathema to all life on Earth and interested in turning it into a literal extension of Hell. They are omnicidal. They are an existential threat. Thinking they should all die is not psychopathic, it’s the only reasonable position. Characters are free to have unreasonable positions, but let’s be real and understand that their goal is to build a bridge between Hell and Earth for conquest by an army of demons with godlike powers.
5. They get yoinked out of any borough that doesn’t belong to them, making extended roleplay impossible and extremely dangerous to the person who decides to give them the chance. There’s no point in taking them back to base for an interrogation if they’ll just get teleported back to their own base. If this gets suppressed when bound (dunno if it does), then it still only lasts until they bargain escape out of it. Then, oops, you can never travel through a Legion-controlled borough again without threat of retaliation.

Their design simply makes them impossible to leave unaddressed as a threat, unfortunately. It relies entirely on trusting the behavior of someone you do not know, cannot vet, and cannot opt out of unlike every other antagonistic system in H7. All while giving even more power to the antagonist than other systems do. To my knowledge, there’s nothing stopping them from electric fencing you into a room and then detaining everyone that tries to save you.

So the role of these Guests is explicitly stated to be a threat and mechanically supported as a nearly unsurmountable one. Lore supports them as the one faction that everyone agrees is a problem and has to be stopped. The entire game is built around limiting their influence and power.

You should make one planning on being a threat, causing trouble, and eventually dying. Not having an extended character arc, because they simply aren’t built for one. They do not have the mechanical support for it. They have huge barriers in place, both in code and lore, to keep it from happening.

Do I think this is how an antagonist guest should be designed? No. But it’s the reality.

Do I think no-RP murder is ideal behavior? No, but the current code and lore punishes anything else. There’s no way to draw it out without risking far worse happening to your PC.

It’s a Guest with an instant auto-win button they can deploy any time they like in certain areas and get teleported out of any area where they can’t do it. They can hurt anyone they like worse than any real PC and are largely immune to the consequences. It’s the natural consequence of the design.

So I mostly do everything in my power to avoid them, because extended roleplay is actively coded against as it stands.

[Matthew]

I want to step in here since I was the one who ultimately made the call.

This wasn’t a case where someone set out to hunt down a Lieutenant. It was a wrong place, wrong time moment. While actively out in the mist people got pulled into combat. One was a Lieutenant who attacked the other person, and from there they lost. I wasn’t in a position to be fully involved when it was happening, so I delegated and gave a remote call. That decision, made at a distance, is what cut the story short.

At the time, my thinking was fairly binary: either a prolonged interrogation with little chance of survival that I didn’t have time to oversee or participate in, or an execution to move on. On that basis, I advised killing. What I didn’t realize then was that this ended up being zero RP. That’s where I see the real mistake. Not being more present to make sure the story had space to play out, even briefly. By defaulting to the “clean” solution, I halted someone else’s story, and that’s not what I want to promote.

I think we should talk more as a group about what to do with captured Lieutenants. Execution is the quick answer, but it risks shutting things down. Long-term imprisonment doesn’t seem sustainable. I struggle finding reasons where it makes sense to release, but want to find those kinds of solutions.

I’ll own my part in how this one played out, and I’ll handle it differently in the future. Sometimes these situations do come down to bad timing and imperfect information, but that doesn’t change the fact that better RP could have happened here. I appreciate everyone raising their perspectives, and I’d like to help work toward clearer expectations so we can balance danger with story in moments like this.

[Thomas]

I think Matthew is right to shift the conversation to what to do with captured lieutenants.

I think much of the time, execution is going to make sense. As a community, we should try to acknowledge that the player of the lieutenant has put time and effort into making story for folks, and that unlike, say, a monster guest or high-tier PC antagonist, they haven’t gotten karma/RPXP/etc for doing so — but all the same, villains’ stories have an ending. We should just try to make sure we do that with some acknowledgement and closure.

Long-term imprisonment just doesn’t make sense, and I think brainwashing is codedly not possible.

I think there are some circumstances where we might release a lieutenant in order to gain some advantage, if they seem ICly like someone you can make a deal with. For example, one faction to try to lean on the lieutenant to use their powers to help in a fight against another faction. Another example may be letting a lieutenant go to get a ‘free pass’ in a borough you need to spend some time on.

Ultimately, though, these ‘bargain’ circumstances are going to be very limited to the particular IC events at the time. There may be some other circumstances, for instance in an RP fight, where the lieutenant flees — and perhaps roughup makes a little sense for that even in coded combat, if the war hasn’t been very “hot” lately.

Still, a lot of the time death is going to be the outcome that makes sense under the story. I think what’s incumbent on us as a community is to try to make that meaningful, -especially- because lieutenant guests are pure labors of love, without any sort of reward for the RP work that is put into creating them.

[Lykaia]

Guest characters are temporary by design. Given the threat posed by the 63rd, it is both in-character and consistent with established lore that they may be killed during conflicts. In this case, the outcome may not have been the most satisfying experience for the guest player, but it remains a reasonable and justifiable development within the setting.

The opportunity to eliminate a temporary character was taken, and while it is unfortunate that the guest’s developing story was cut short, this is an inherent risk of playing a temporary character.

[Lykaia]

There is a general expectation among some players that I would hunt down 63rd lieutenant guest characters. To date, I have not assumed that role. Such proceeding would typically follow a simple pattern: breach the location, locate the target, eliminate them, and withdraw, a lethal strike rather than an attempt at capture.

Tactical or material benefit from capture is usually limited unless the guest carries a useful legendary. Most guest builds are combat-oriented and lack resources of wider utility. Moreover, many legendary effects are unavailable to Bloodline artifacts and therefore inaccessible to large parts of the playerbase. As a result, those legendaries could effectively substitute for services formerly provided by the goblin market, and it is reasonable to expect some groups may eventually create legion guest characters to secure specific benefits for their clique.

[Miles]

@Matthew

Sometimes in situations like that, even remotely, you’ll find that the only way to be sure that the person actually gets a decent scene is to go there and do it yourself. It’s one of the reasons being in any kind of role where you’re responsible for other peoples’ behavior can be such a nightmare, though it gets a lot easier when you have at least a handful of people you can trust to be responsible and delegate with.

@Matias

Given that escape doesn’t work when you’re being RP’d with, and that even with bargain flight running there is a substantial timer before it fires off, I’m not sure what “risk” you’re talking about that requires you to no-rp instapk the victim before they even wake up. There is no such risk. The only “cost” paid is your time. If the victim mouths off then you can just emote and then kill them. The game was specifically designed to eliminate “costs” and “risks” of actually bothering to RP, it’s one of the things Nova did best.

@Lykaia

That’s not really an excuse. I’ve given the offline bodies of some of the biggest trolls the game has seen more attention and effort than it sounds like happened here. There’s really not much of an excuse. Zero RP PKs have actually been reversed in the past. It’s just incredibly bad form.

@Athena

From what’s been written in this thread, the apparent thought is that a mist monster initiated the combat and then you attacked one of the people who then went on to PK. What was the thought process behind attacking the person? Was there some confusion about who initiated the combat? It sounds like they originally thought you did, did you think they did?

There might actually be something to learn from this in that the game may benefit from clarity as to who is initiating combat so there’s less confusion and uncertainty when it starts. That confusion and uncertainty doesn’t really make any sense ICly as people don’t, you know, magically toggle into combat mode without knowing who they’re being attacked by or actually being attacked.

[Anonymous]

My thoughts through this:

Went to a place in Killgrove, saw someone 2E in mist. Went E once to see who. Saw PC who was facing away. Was considering turning and leaving or if I would need to Control Incap them when I heard something in the mist. Rat showed up. Literally just a rat, so literally zero threat to the PC. Combat begins before I can even think to flee.

However, it also auto-aggroed me to the PC, meaning combat was not going to end when PC killed the rat. And then they would look around, see me, and obviously, I would be get attacked (because presumably the PC knew me or of me). Did attempt Control Incap, but in combat does not work. And I could kill a rat to keep it from kidnapping the PC. PC was a Brute, so I did not think I was getting out of this fight regardless. Thus, the only way out was through. So I used what little combat abilities an LT has to try to put up a good fight, knowing I was not going to win (because I knew who the PC was).

So, essentially, I was doomed as soon as I heard something in the mist.

For the record, I am to surprised by the death. I am not angry at the death. It is the zero RP execution in first interaction bit that spurred this post. I am surprised by the lack of RP in a role playing game. This is not an IRE game or an H&S mud.

[Evalina]

Honestly I don’t know context or whatever roleplay happened here, I am just a bit shocked by the callousness on display in this thread.

The reason not to kill a character nilly-willy isn’t because they cost karma or whatever. It’s because people invest time and effort into stories and generally it’s best to either engage positively or not at all. Death can be a good end to a story and part of an arc for another, but death for the sake of death just takes away from the game and adds nothing.

I am not sure why anyone would be so eager to kill. If it’s because they were in your view bad then just call that out, (as @lykaia did, thank you!) but I struggle to see why anyone would read this thread, read how people think about lieutenants and pking, and consider spending hours to days to weeks to months of their precious time trying to create a compelling lieutenant while the attitudes are what they are.

They’re meant to be rabble rousers and impress how bad the 63rd is. I think making the leap from ‘They’re meant to be really evil!’ to ‘So we should kill them!’ sure is consistent but boy is it unfun. The game flies, lives and dies, by its villains. Something this game, I would argue, has been sorely lacking in recent iterations. Surely we can have enough consideration to not normalize murdering the few people who choose to do so – a lieutenant (a good one) is effort just like a normal player is. And sure the barrier to murdering them should be lower. But I think the game would still be a lot better if we’d kept in mind ‘hey, we could really use some good lieutenants to make the 63rd more than a piece of text that means we lost favor, let’s encourage or at least not pee in the cheerios of whomever is giving that a shot’.

I think expecting them to be clique tools is assuming the worst. I certainly hope we’ll have the good faith to play lieutenants for the purpose of impressing the big bad legion, and engaging with them in a way that keeps a ball rolling, whilst they might fill in roles needed by the playerbase (e.g. fleshformer lieutenants) without serving specific pcs / ooc friends.

But good faith starts on both sides. Maybe Athena did something to earn themselves a bit of bad faith, maybe not. I don’t know. But I find this general discussion horrifyingly inconsiderate of antagonists.

And yeah, doing 0 RP on a kill is just… At least bring in others so they have a story about it, ideally. Publicly execute someone by hanging citing the legion’s crimes if you’re a bit evil. You know? There’s a lot of potential fun here and instead a character is just cast into the void, all the cost none of the benefit. I don’t think that’s very fun for anyone…

[Matias]

@Miles

I never used the term risk in my posts, I think you are mixing my and Valkuk up or any of the other people that used that term?

[Anonymous]

It took longer for you to type that than the fight lasted… It was speed 1, no pause combat. I don’t know what sort of amazing typing you expect to happen in that situation while also resigning yourself to losing a character, but I assure you, the whole thing was very, very fast.

How about you stop strawmanning this and actually focus on the actual topic?

[Arachne]

This is a really shitty situation to be in for all involved parties and I hate that the responses here can become a representation for what people think is waiting for them in the game. It’s really disappointing to see that this stuff is still happening.

It is an extremely big deal to kill another character regardless of them being a lieutenant guest or a regular character. Everyone deserves to be treated to some kind of scene approaching their death. And if you are an involved party incapable of meaningfully engaging at that time due to time constraints or anything, then there is nothing wrong with prolonging and leaving them in confinement with an OOC note or tell exchange to coordinate with the captive for times that sync. It’s too many options on the table for how to deal with an enemy that narratively makes sense and ensures both parties are getting a meaningful story out of it.

We need to remember that we’re players who are engaging in a game, so what a character would realistically do is not always synonymous with what gives the most narrative value in a RP game like this.

There is no situation that isn’t explicitly arranged between players where no-RP PK is okay. PVP is already extremely stressful for all involved parties, so please have grace and approach scenes with other people the way you would want someone to handle you if you were in the same situation.

[Matthew]

Arachne makes great points, and the more I think and reflect on it, the more I realize how much I could have done better. For instance, would it have been terrible to aim for imprisonment and explain, ‘Hey, I can’t give you a full scene right now, and this will likely end in your character’s death’, which in turn offers the other player the option to escape and continue their story. I wish I’d had the forethought to approach it from that direction and allowed for collaborative RP by leaving the decision of Athena’s story in that player’s hands.

If the Lieutenant had chosen to escape before a scene could happen, I think that still would’ve been fine. It wouldn’t have been zero RP, because it would have left room for future engagement or consequence. I realize it would have been better to preserve the potential of continuing your story rather than cutting it off too soon.

I also want to apologize to Athena for how things went down. It doesn’t change what happened, I know this, but I want you to know I recognize that I should have done more to protect your story to ensure there was more space for it to play out. Moving forward I’ll carry this experience and will do better in the future.

[Talia]

Just to add my 2c to the thread:

Why the rush to kill an antagonist at the earliest opportunity as many people seem to think is the goal? Yes, their end of the story is likely just death. Yes, they are evil.
But why not let it play out for a while? Antagonists create story and conflict. If they are killed, all that dies with them. That applies to both monsters and lieutenants.

Would it be a compelling story if Long John Silver would get hanged at the first opportunity on the ship in “Treasure Island”? Or if the eagles carried Gandalf to Mount Doom with the One Ring in one afternoon? If Voldemort got killed in the first book? If Professor Moriarty got arrested right away?

Have some faith in other roleplayers. Let them escape to fight another day. Make a bargain with them if your char is evil. Have moral compunctions if your char is not evil. Whatever…

Back in H6 I was involved in a heavy scene dealing with the possible execution of a character. What I did before I made the call was… I talked to the person OOC and asked them casually if they were okay with their char’s story ending in that way. They said they’d prefer not to. And I found a reason to let them go. Yes, this is a PvP game, but that does not mean you can’t be collaborative in storytelling, /especially/ when it comes to something as impactful as death.

And lastly, even if you decide unilaterally that a certain char has to go, giving them one last scene is just basic RP decency. Let them have a last cigarette, a last one-liner, or whatever. If you don’t have the time to give them a proper scene (and a proper scene is more than three says and a tepid emote), then let them go. Full stop.

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