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Jacks White Oak Seminar The Trolley Problem 240730
In the vibrant setting of the Spender Arts and Wellness Center's Latin Classroom, an eclectic mix of students and faculty gathers for Father Jack Francis's seminar on the Trolley Problem. The room, adorned with ancient texts and drenched in colorful sunlight, provides an almost ethereal backdrop for the evening's debate. Among the attendees are Aristotle, curious about the class subject; Tabitha, who greets Jack with a devilish smile; and Matthew, who teases Aristotle for his nerdiness before admitting his own interest in the topic. As the seminar begins, Jack delves into the complex ethical quandary of the Trolley Problem, prompting the participants to consider the moral implications of sacrificing one life to save many.
The discussion swiftly evolves into an engaging and sprawling debate, touching upon various philosophical doctrines and personal beliefs. Participants raise hypothetical scenarios, such as a world-renowned but morally compromised brain surgeon, to test the boundaries of ethical decision-making. Throughout the seminar, attendees grapple with the concepts of action versus inaction, the value of human life, and the societal implications of their choices. Father Jack guides the conversation with thought-provoking questions and a brief, unexpected musical interlude, encouraging participants to confront the uncomfortable realities of moral responsibility. As the seminar concludes, the room is left with a sense of unresolved tension, underlining the inherent complexities of the Trolley Problem and the profound challenge it poses to individual conscience and societal norms.
(Jack's [White Oak] Seminar: The Trolley Problem)
[Mon Jul 29 2024]
In the Latin Classroom of the Spender Arts and Wellness Center at White Oak
Aged, leather-bound tomes and meticulously annotated manuscripts line the sturdy, oak bookshelves. The soft, filtered sunlight seeps through the stained glass windows, casting a colorful, ethereal glow that dances across the weathered, wooden desks and the intricate, Latin inscriptions adorning the walls. The faint scent of antiquity lingers in the air and the distant murmur of students poring over ancient texts can just barely be heard in the distance.
It is about 90F(32C) degrees.
"I did, yeah. I promise, I'm not one of those alumni that keeps hanging around." Aristotle promises. "I just saw the class subject and was curious."
Jordan hums cheerfully as they waltz back in, then nods to Aristotle. "Good thing to be, I think. Never stop learning, and all."
Tabitha is a little late to the class, swishing herself in while digging around her tote for a notebook and a pen. She smiles big, bright at Jack, it would ... one might think... look a fair bit devilish. "Hello, Father Francis. You are looking well tonight."
Matthew snickers after Aristotle's comment. "Kinda nerdy.", he teases, striding along easily enough. After a beat, he adds, "...I think it's a neat topic too.", in a practical mumble as he takes a seat next to Jordan.
Freya waves at Aristotle, Matthew and Jordan as they make their way in fashionably late.
"There's a few of I don't know," Jack tells the class, indicating Matthew and Silvanus. "But all of you otherwise know me," he says. "I am Father Jack Francis. In addition to being vicar at the chapel, I teach philosophy, religion -- and the applied sciences of the same," he says.
"Hey, nerds are hot." Aristotle says as a retort over towards Matthew as he follows the group he walked in with towards the desks.
Jordan agrees with Aristotle with an energetic nod and a smirk to Matthew before raising their hand.
"They can be.", Matthew concedes to Aristotle with a gratuitous dip of his chin and gesture forward with his hand, before snorting as his eyes flit to Jordan briefly.
Freya texts a few times on her phone, "Sorry apparently a couple of other late stragglers on their way.."
"Yes, Mr. Ellis?" Jack asks Jordan. "And who is your friend?"
"Oh, um. Matt. Matt Demirjian.", Matthew stands back up briefly to introduce himself to Jack. "Pleased to meet your acquaintance.", he adds on, before re-seating himself.
Freya waves at Juniper and Elias from the back of the classroom at the last row of desks with a sortof shellshocked Silvanus sitting next to her.
Jordan asks with nerdy enthusiasm, "You teach about many religions? I can come to you to learn about them? I sort of assumed you'd only teach about Christianity." They move a hand to Matthew, but don't need to introduce him.
Jordan asks with nerdy enthusiasm, "You teach about many religions? I can come to you to learn about them? I sort of assumed you'd only teach about Christianity." They move a hand to Matthew, but don't need to introduce him.
"I do," Jack tells Jordan. "I see some more newcomers," he says to Juniper and Elias. "What are your names?"
"I do," Jack tells Jordan. "I see some more newcomers," he says to Juniper and Elias. "What are your names?"
Tabitha crosses her legs as she settles into the desk in the front, turning her head to the side to look at the newcomers to, even if her eyes were on Jack, in a questioning fashion as if to say: 'what?'
Trying to avoid being the center of attention as he joins late, Elias calls out in response to Jack, "Sorry we are late. The traffic is a bit rough this time of year. I am Elias."
"Juniper Andersen, faculty," Juniper announces herself as well, lifting a hand and giving a wink to some recognized student faces. "Apologies for the tardiness."
Jordan turns to look at someone over their shoulder, giving him a longer look.
Jordan turns to look at Elias over their shoulder, giving him a longer look.
"Are you a student here, Mr. Elias?" Jack asks Elias. that it matters. This seminar is appropriate for all -- ah!" he says to Juniper. "Miss Anderson, I've been wanting to meet you. Welcome to the lecture," he says. He settles, looking around the room. "Everyone, I'm pleased to say that tonight we will talk philosophy. Who has heard about the Trolley Problem before?" he asks the class.
Jordan raises a hand obediently.
Languidly, Aristotle raises his hand in response.
Juniper dutifully raises her hand with an unironic grin.
Jordan raises a hand obediently first.
"Hello, Elias, Juniper. I'm Tabitha," Tabitha says as she slowly turns back to the front and Jack, a bit of a grin playful on her lips. Her hand raises slightly, but not to necessarily be called upon, but there is a bit of a jazz hand given.
Freya lifts her hand now that other people have raised theirs.
Matthew squints, thoughtful for a moment, as he lifts his left hand after a moment.
"I am not a student here. I am just a student of life and it is hard to pass up exploring a philosophical subject." Elias offers to Jack as he makes himself comfortable in the back row of the classroom.
Jodie makes no effort to introduce herself though she does look to the people giving their names to briefly check them out. Once the rounds have been made she looks to Jack and leans forward in her seat to show attentiveness as the topic of the class comes up
Jack cocks his head, and there's a moment -- some song. "With my high-starched collar," he sings. "And my high-topped shoes... I went to lose a jolly hour on the Trolley, and lost my heart instead-" It's an out of place little song, and there's a moment -- a smirk. "All of you," he says. "All of you are too young to know Meet Me In St. Louis, aren't you?" he says. "Mr. Ellis -- tell me what you know about the Trolley Problem," he says.
Silvanus looks up for just a moment, and says "Judy Garland. Absolute classic. My mom was obsessed with her."
From her seat, Tabitha covers her mouth with a hand as if to mask a grin that can't help but to grow far wider at Jack breaking out into song.
Freya turns to look at Silvanus as he sprouts some other language, and her eyebrows raise slightly before lowering as Elias identifies the language. She braces an elbow on the desk infront of her and rests her head on her hand, seemingly not quite used to this kindof seminar before.
"You need to do a little dance if you are going to serenade us, Father." Tabitha says, lowering her hand from her mouth and picking up her pen to take notes. Like a good little student.
"Hypoglycemia and hyperglycemia is about the extent of my Latin... Although.. Maybe they're greek..." Freya looks thoughtful as she glances over at Silvanus.
Jordan blinks in surprise, then laughs. "Maybe." They roll their eyes at something, but answers obediently. "It's a philosophical... puzzle, maybe, or test, governing morality, and the worth of a human life. It's a rather fluid and modular problem, but the basics is usually, "If you are at the track switch for a trolly, and find that there are two sets of individuals tied on the tracks, who you cannot free in time, which track do you have the trolley take? Often, there's five adults on one track, and one child on the other, or something similar. It can get convoluted.""
Jordan blinks in surprise, then laughs. "Maybe." They roll their eyes at something, but answers obediently. "It's a philosophical... puzzle, maybe, or test, governing morality, and the worth of a human life. It's a rather fluid and modular problem, but the basics is usually, 'If you are at the track switch for a trolly, and find that there are two sets of individuals tied on the tracks, who you cannot free in time, which track do you have the trolley take?' Often, there's five adults on one track, and one child on the other, or something similar. It can get convoluted." (fix)
Jordan glances back at Silvanus, not hearing anyone identify the language, with a look of curiosity.
Matthew tilts his head, squinting slightly with a small smile at the song before glancing over to Jordan as they give their explanation of the trolley problem. "It's.. Also a tool for comparing ethical systems.", he begins, crossing his arms. "Like.. Well, like deontology versus utilitarianism.", he considers, leaning an elbow on the desk before him.
Juniper leans to listen to Silvanus before she gives a little smile and an appreciative nod to the man. "Thank you," she mouths to him, without making much sound to detract further from the current lecture point.
"Is that right?" Jack asks Tabitha. "This is serious business," he tells Tabitha, nodding to Jordan. "It is a puzzle. It's about morality. Imagine, if you will... a set of railroad tracks with a switch," he says. "You are the conductor of the train -- and through no fault of you own, five people are working on the tracks ahead you. They misread the schedule. There is no way to warn them," he explains. "But you can throw a switch and go down a track you are not scheduled to travel down, but if you do you will strike and kill one person who is crossing the tracks, believing -- according to the schedule -- that no train is coming."
The priest looks around the class, stepping out into the open area, and he begins to do a little soft-shoe. "Chug, chug went the motor," he sings. "Bump, bump went the brake. Thump, thump, thump went my heartsrings-" There's, sure enough, some dance to match the song, but then Jack pauses for effect. "What do you do? Kill the five, who are not supposed to be on the tracks? Or kill the one, who is?"
Jordan looks over to Matthew, curious.
"Hey, d'you guys think any particular person's answer to the trolley system is a good way to judge their character?" Aristotle wonders, his voice low as it seems his question is reserved for both Matthew and Jordan.
Jodie's eyes sort of just glaze over when Matthew adds his input on words she clearly has no concept of. While she's sitting there she has a idle look on her face, her lips slightly parted as she plays her tongue against the insides of her crooked teeth as if the ADHD is really wanting to break free.
Jack looks around for raised hands at his question.
Silvanus flicks a hand up, lazily. "You kill the one. Unless the one has greater socio-economic or cultural significance. Then you kill the five."
Jordan sighs, saying to Aristotle, "Probably. Though, keep in mind that people have their reasons. Someone may just say what they think is popular or correct, while others will want to be shocking. Personally, I hate it because I either get really coldly logical, or selfish, but many people don't like looking in the mirror, you know?"
Freya's eyes also glaze over slightly at Matthew's big words but she raises a hand in offering towards Jack, "You could run over the five and then shoot the one so they're all dead..." Freya answers perhaps unhelpfully, "Then it's fair right.."
Silvanus twist his hand, curling and uncurling his fingers, "Though again, it depends on what framework you're working within. Marxist-socialist would say that the needs of the common always outweigh the needs of the singular. Egalitarian cultural frameworks would say that death itself is either meaningless, and comes to all, and so it doesn't matter what you choose. OR, that death is not the decision of one man, and that the person at the switch is, in fact, the greatest danger to society."
Jordan looks curiously at Matthew over his words, clearly with questions on their mind.
"I get that." Aristotle says, nodding at Jordan's answer. "People don't like looking into a mirror, but... I think it's always more admirable to just own up to your belief than to try and say something shocking or popular. Lying just kinda closes the door to change, but I guess that's a different topic."
Jordan nods to Aristotle thoughtfully, musing. "We're none of us perfect, why try to be, I suppose."
Jordan confers with Aristotle softly, but doesn't raise their hand.
Silvanus concludes with a faint sniff, letting his hand sort of 'thud' against his desk. "The problem, without an external framework, is an inherent fallacy. Usually. It's posited as a thought experiment only, it has no singular, articulate answer."
Matthew looks over to Aristotle curiously. "I think many people claim one thing but would do another.", he supposes cryptically. To Jordan, he provides, "Why not try to be? Or, well, aspire to be.", with a little grin.
Jordan snaps their fingers. "That's the term, thought experiment. What's your name? I'm Carcosa. And what about what *you* would do?"
Jack tells Freya, "This is a problem that says something about morality, certainly, Miss Joyce -- and that answer, if honest, says something about yours." He looks at Silvanus. "I didn't catch your name, sir," he says. "But you're right -- this is a thought experiment, for college students to explore how we think about moral facts, many of whom have never been introduced to philosophy before." There's some criticism in his tone. "You've forgotten, perhaps, what it was like to be eighteen and fresh in school."
Jordan looks at Silvanus in genuine curiosity, though a smirking smile crosses their lips.
"Oh, if I had to choose, I'd pick being average than being perfect." Aristotle quietly muses. "But, that's probably for my own mental health I think. If I'm trying to be perfect, I'm always failing. Which means, I'm always a failure and every day is a bad day, because perfection isn't attainable. Whereas, if I'm average, I have some perfect days that are great and some days that are less than, but it's not consistently bad. Probably not trolley related, but still."
Jordan nods at Matthew, smiling. "Yeah, you're right... when push comes to shove, that's our realest selves, who we often don't know."
Tabitha turns around to face Silvanus, at his answer, nodding lightly at his studious answer. "Though only an experiment, it poses an interesting question on ethics. If a child, do you save it, the future, or the business men with the social status and experience to make a difference today."
"Doctor Silvanus Gardener, Father, And, you'll excuse me for saying so, but if yu can give me back about two or three decades, I might remember the feeling, Father. But it's been achingly longer than that since I last sat on this side of a lecture hall, you'll have to excuse me. My attendance isn't of my own volition, I fear," Silvanus adds, dipping his head at Freya. "I was, quite literally, picked up and carried here. Please, continue, I apologize for the interjection."
Despite herself, Juniper now lets out a peal of laughter that isn't reserved to their back row of seating.
"It's a thought experiment." Freya agrees with Jack, "So all options should be explored. My options leaves no witnesses. Ethically it may be better to kill the man than to let him live with a lifetime of PSTD rewatching 5 people get crushed by a train over and over again." Freya glances over at Silvanus at his words but she doesn't comment about it. "I like playing devil's advocate."
Juniper puts a hand to her mouth then and clears her throat, quickly regaining her composure.
Jordan clarifies to Silvanus "I meant, which would you do, if you had your hand on the lever?"
"Ultimately, isn't the status quo whatever the most acceptable decision would be? If you happen to find yourself on a trolley speeding down at some people on a track, that might not necessarily be your fault - but if you change the track to direct it at someone, that's your fault. That makes you a murderer.", Matthew supposes somewhat sharply, though there's a twinge of a smile that suggests he's looking for a reaction.
Jordan gives Matthew a smile.
Jack sings, "Clang, clang, clang went the trolley...-" A pause. "Mr. Ellis is right, Mr. Gardener. The question is what you do." He looks at Matthew. "Quite an interesting iteration, Mr. Demirjian, and you're onto something. When you flick the switch it is -you- who has killed. Is that worse? Or does society have it wrong, under that circumstance? When do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?"
"Yes, explore the options. What..." Tabitha asks Jack, "Would your solution be? I think the class'd be interested in hearing." She smiles that red lipped smile, but turns back again to the back rows, awaiting, perhaps to see if Silvanus will also respond.
"Isn't the whole point not to do anything, because by not doing anything you are not responsible?" Jodie says probably pulling that tid-bit of knowledge from thin air.
Jordan emote announces, "I didn't think we'd agree there, Matt. Well, except... you're the conductor in this one. It's your responsibility regardless. The trolley, the lives on it, and the lives on the track are all your responsibility. You signed up for the job, you signed up for the weight of your actions."
Jordan says to Matthew, "I didn't think we'd agree there, Matt. Well, except... you're the conductor in this one. It's your responsibility regardless. The trolley, the lives on it, and the lives on the track are all your responsibility. You signed up for the job, you signed up for the weight of your actions." (fix)
"I think you'd still be responsible either way." Aristotle says, pausing for a moment to contemplate. "I mean, if you -knew- someone was on the track and you didn't do anything, you're still kind of responsible if you had the power to but chose not to."
"Are you not responsible though? If you walk by a homeless guy and you could've offered him a place to stay and you find him froze to death the next morning... Society would LIKE to believe they're not responsible because to do otherwise would mean they should feel guilt." Freya shrugs as she braces both her elbows onto the table. "Whereas if you lived in a small village or tribe environment I bet you would help out."
"Would you?" Jodie questions Aristotle with a smirk. "What if you knew a the best Brain Surgeon in the world was a serial killer. They save a hundred lives a year but once a month they gotta get their jollies and off someone." she tilts her head and ask, "If you arrest them and lock them away, you've just killed at least a hundred people. Is it worth it?"
"Not -legally- responsible, though. Like.. One's maybe negligence, and the other is vehicular manslaughter. The latter's a more serious charge. If we take laws to represent the.. Well, the manifestation of ethical consequences, then.. Ideally you'd take the course of action which renders oneself less liable.", Matthew supposes, leaning his chin on his hand while resting his elbow on his desk, brow furrowed in thought.
"If the best brain surgeon didn't want to be arrested, he maybe shouldn't have killed people." Aristotle says, answering Jodie with a little hike of his shoulder. "There are other surgeons. I'd arrest this one and think nothing of it. After all, each life he saved, he also killed."
"Once more, with feeling, Father." Tabitha requests. Of song? Of dance? She clears her throat. He knows of what. She crosses her legs in a feminine twist.
Jordan argues with Freya "I think that's different. You didn't sign up or volunteer or choose to be in charge of homing the homeless. I don't think you're responsible even in the village. People might call you an asshole, but that's not the same as responsibility." To Matthew, they add, "I mean, I think you'd be legally responsible? Buuuuut, I'm not a law student. If you think that's how it works... then yeah, 5 people... well. Negligence, but is 5 counts worse than one count of manslaughter?"
"Miss Joyce hits the nail on the head," Jack says. "We do encounter the trolley problem all the time." He looks back over at Tabitha. "I have a solution," he says. "But I'd like to see what the class has to say." He nods to Jodie. "This problem gets much worse when it's not a train conductor. If I, for instance, can save a classroom of students by torturing one of them for my own pleasure, is it justified?" he says. "Save a school-full of students by sacrificing a few of them?" he asks. "Save the world by condemning a dozen, now and then, just for sport?"
"Plop, plop, plop went the wheels," he sings, with a little more soft-shoe. "Is it worth crushing someone's soul for pleasure, if it saves the worthy?"
"Ahh but.." Freya turns towards Aristotle. "What if he's the only surgeon in the world who is willing to operate on some people? That no one else will? And if they don't get operated on they might die in a month. And if they do get operated on they might die right away ... or they might live for another 10 years? What if you arrest that one guy and there's no one else who'll do his job? We literally have a brain surgeon like that... He got banned from practicing in Aus so now .. he's practicing in the EU."
"The brain surgeon shouldn't have got caught by a narc." Jodie replies to Aristotle with obvious petulance.
Jordan smiles at Jack, attention pulled right back to him. "Does justice exist? Surely, it's fine. You have a good time, the greater good is saved, and the sacrifice... is unlucky. It's wrong, say many, but it's right, isn't it? You make a martyr."
"Tsk. If he's literally the -only- surgeon, then that village as a whole has an entirely different set of problems, that this hypothetical is not able to address." Aristotle says, chuckling a bit. But, he pauses for a moment to consider. "If this surgeon is the only one, then I'd have to hope that human tenacity would mean that someone else would rise in his absence to fill that need. And in the scenario of saving a class by torturing another student?" He says, motioning over towards Jack. "I figure just say yes until the class is out of danger, and then shoot the problem. But, I'm a cop, so like... critical thinking isn't really what we're tested on."
"The manslaughter's probably worse.", Matthew supposes vaguely in response to Jordan. "The real question becomes, 'what would a reasonable person do in that situation?'", he adds on with a little grin. "Oh, also..", Matthew begins as he taps at his phone, "Looks like... You need to prove that the person *caused* the deaths, for it to be manslaughter, at least in Massachusetts. Sooooo...", he says with a little shrug to them. "If you flick the switch, that's a cause - an 'actus reus'."
"Inaction is worse, I feel, in many cases. If you let them continue, then you are no better than them, no?" Tabitha asks, tapping her pen against her lip in thought. "Actions bring consequences, sure. Inaction is still an action. The choice you took to let it happen." She pouts softly. "There is no easy answer. And our answers are clouded by our own beliefs and experiences. In the case of the trolley, I would choose one over the many. It sucks no matter what, and one I'd have to live with forever. Especially when it becomes that suddenly you find out those five you've let live are monsters."
"He is literally the only neurosurgeon in the entire world that is willing to operate on some brain cancer patients. Charlie Teo. It's not about a village or anything. It's not even a hypothetical. There's people out there who were given weeks to live who are alive 5 years later because of him. Surgeries literally 0 other surgeons will touch because the risk is too great. Anddd you can bet if he no longer operates it is unlikely any other surgeon will take up the mantle. So would you strip him of his license? When his patients understand that they have a 80/ chance to die on the table or face 100/ chance to die in a few weeks?" Freya shrugs a shoulder at Aristotle.
"If he's a serial killer? Yes." Aristotle says, nodding at Freya. "Actions have consequences, and this man's choice, despite his skill, to kill someone else that doesn't deserve it? The consequence, if you get caught, is incarceration or death and, naturally, a loss of your license. The easiest thing this surgeon can do to avoid that, is like... don't kill people."
"Miss Matheson cuts to the quick on morality," Jack says, indicating Tabitha. "The utilitarian says you do what's best, even when it comes at the cost. I think that raises a question," he says. "One Mr. Demirjian and Mr. Ellis hint at, too." He pauses, nodding to Jordan and Matthew. "Who thinks that it might be the right choice for society to kill the one, and all the same make you a monster?"
"What if they can't help it?" Jodie ask Aristotle bluntly. She looks pleased that people are running with her brain surgeon idea and debating it aggressively.
Freya also seems to be enjoying the brain cancer debate, "And what if your mother or child or partner had that brain cancer that ONLY he can operate on. Would you still arrest him?"
Jodie gives Freya a fingergun gesture and pretends to shoot her in a friendly way, she likes where this is going.
"What if we saved the brain surgeon conditionally - by, like.. Drugging him, such that he loses his urge to kill without losing his ability to operate?", Matthew wonders with a squint, hopping in on the brain surgeon angle. "Or, like.. Removed those murderous urges, somehow."
Freya nods to Matthew, "We do that to rapists. Castrate them chemically so they have less ...rapey urges."
"I mean, that isn't impossible." Tabitha says, peeking back at Matthew.
Jodie gives Freya a fingergun gesture and pretends to shoot her in a friendly way, she likes where this is going. "Yeah, it's a Brain surgeon after all, only fucking Wilsons can afford his life saving surgery. By taking him out, you are dooming your family members to brain tumours."
"If the surgeon couldn't help it, then, I don't know, maybe we could chain him up, or sedate him, when he's feeling that... 'urge.'" Aristotle says, solutions a bit too specific but otherwise he's glossing over it.
Jordan sits back in their chair and raises their hand. "Better to do a one. Surely it makes one an even greater monster to sacrifice the many out of a fear of feeling or looking bad?"
Freya turns to look at Juniper, patting her arm. "Sorry I should've grabbed him so he can't run but I got distracted debating.." She gives Juniper a rueful look before looking out the door. "He seems okay though?"
"That's an interesting response," Jack tells Matthew and Freya. "You're not alone. Most people, when confronted with the trolley problem, want to change the rules so they don't have to choose." He pauses. "But here's the thing -- chug, chug, chug, goes the motor," he sings. "The problem is real. We -are- confronted with this choice." He looks to Jordan. "I promised I wouldn't get into religion," he says. "But I'm hard-pressed not to wonder if there's a story somewhere in the Bible about sacrificing one for the many."
"Heh. Is it Jesus?" Aristotle wonders of Jack, a little amused.
Jodie leans back in her seat and thumbs her phone under her desk, hiding it as if she had to hide it from the teacher. Though she doesn't even go here as a student does she?
Jordan grins at Aristotle, nodding, then back at Jack. "Yeah, we all want to have our cake and eat it, too. It's human nature. And I'm sure someone did die for my sins. Tortured, too."
"Not fear. Principle.", Matthew counters Jordan, cupping his chin. "Otherwise, what precedent does that set for the future? If it's *sometimes* okay to murder one person to save five, what about murdering four to save five? What about eleven to save twelve?", he wonders with a squint.
Isabella struts along down the main aisle with her head held high, and heads right for the front row, acting like she's not even late, mostly. She gives Jack a quick smile, sitting toward the edge of the row before glancing down it.
"The Christ story makes it easier though, doesn't it?" Jack asks Jordan. "In the Bible, he chose to die for your sins. "The question is -- is it still okay if I choose someone to die to save you? Is it okay if Miss Matheson chooses someone whose suffering makes your life better?" he says. "If Miss Joyce brutalizes an innocent so you can live free?" He looks up at Isabella. "Welcome. I don't have your name, Miss.""
Tabitha smiles faintly to Isabella when she takes a seat somewhere in the front. Then, as Matthew ups the ante of what number of lives matters, the redhead frowns, her red brows furrowing inward. "Hmmm," she says, softly, thoughtful. "In the end, it comes to the fact that you can not save everyone. No matter how hard that you may try. And ultimately, all the time you spend trying to save others, who would actually save you?" A bit out of left field, but relevant all the same.
Isabella lifts her head a bit more and grabs the front divider for support, having a slight lag in her standing motion. "Sorry, I'm Isabella Hayes, Kinesiology major. Sorry I'm so late." She looks like she wants to say more, but then presses her lips together. Looking aside just then, she returns the smile to Tabitha and takes her seat again.
Jordan nods with a shrug, mostly to Jack. "That's what history says. Those who died for our rights are heroes. Drafted soldiers, the passengers on 9/11, sacrifices. They're heroes, martyrs, and are good and well because we're alive today because of them."
Jack glances up at the clock. "We've been at this for about an hour," he says. "There's never answers, in a seminar like this." He pauses. "The Trolley Problem isn't one of those things we can solve -- clang, clang, clang, it goes," he says, singing just a little. "It's something we have to live with. Does anyone have some last thoughts they want to share before we wind tonight's seminar down?"
Jack glances up at the clock. "We've been at this for about an hour," he says. "There's never answers, in a seminar like this." He pauses. "The Trolley Problem isn't one of those things we can solve -- clang, clang, clang, it goes," he says, singing just a little. "It's something we have to live with. Does anyone have some last thoughts they want to share before we wind tonight's seminar down?"
"I want to know what you would actually do Father." Jodie tells Jack with a sweet, innocent smile. "Five people, or one child? Who dies?"
Isabella inclines an ear to Jordan's direction, turning her head. She raises her hand, looking at Jordan and opines, "Yeah, just a little devil's advocate to add to what he said. I believe it's all a matter of perspective." She turns a palm up, smiling at Jordan and offering, "On the other side of the world, in the middle east, the same people labeled as terrorists over here where the martyrs over there."
Jordan leans in, amused, watching Jack with an expectation, clearly with an idea on his answer.""
Jack turns to look at Jodie. "Miss Moore," he tells Jodie. "It's an awful choice," he says. "But like I said -- it's one we all face." A beat. "And when we do, when I do? The child has died." He says it in a tone that suggests that for a moment, this is not philosophy at all.
Jordan flashes Isabella a grin before saying, "Them, not him."
Jodie subtly flinches when Jack gets a little too serious for her taste and answers her question honestly. Perhaps she was just looking for something more amusing to keep things interesting for her. Either way, she stops talking.
Isabella turns her head suddenly again, this time to stare at Jack. She stays silent, considering his answer with her head tilted a bit.
Jordan smiles triumphantly to Jack, asking, "Because they are pure and innocent and automatically go to heaven, while you may be condemning the adults to hell without a chance at redemption in their final moment?"
Isabella shakes her head slightly then, glancing at Jordan before guessing, "Because if he saves the child he's killed five. He save's the five he's only killed one."
"I figured it's the child too because it might be the case of measuring which trauma is worse, growing up an orphan or outliving your children, but... yeah, heaven too." Aristotle opines.
"If he never flicks the switch though, he kills nobody himself and spares whoever's left.", Matthew supposes, eyes flitting about.
Jordan tilts their head to Isabella while keeping their eyes trained at Jack. It's clear that they believe that they're right, but curious as to whether or not the others have the point.
"There is always hope of Redemption." Tabitha says.
Jack turns slowly to look at Jordan. "No," he says to Jordan, enunciating each word. "We are all of us in some moral war, Mr. Ellis. The child -- innocent or not, saved or not -- is a casualty. We save who we can, even when the cost is high." He looks around. "Action and inaction are the same coin. When you have power -- it's always your choice."
A pause. "I think that's a good place to end our seminar for tonight."
Jordan hums softly before murmuring, "I think that means that Aristotle got it right."
Isabella smiles to herself, enjoying a small victory of hearing similarities in Jack's answer, even if his version of it was noble, and her own so dark.
Freya nods at Juniper, "Sure." She flashes Elias another smile.
"Give us one last dance?" Tabitha half-orders, half-asks Jack, with clear amusement and half-masked glee, while her pen twirls about in the air, then is dropped into her tote.
Juniper stands from her back row desk and makes to excuse herself from the classroom. "Excellent choice for a rousing debate, Father," she calls before she leaves. "Appreciate you allowing our attendance."
"I don't think so," Jack answers Tabitha's question, though there's a little bit of a movement despite his response. "Thank you all for coming," he says.
Freya follows after Juniper, trailing the other woman, "Thank you for the lecture. Stimulating topic Father." She tells him as she files out behind the other professor.
Jordan nods, musing. "Thank you for the lesson, Father."
Isabella goes through her slightly slowed standing process again, "I do have another question.", she says to Jack, "Could I approach the front, Father? I'd like to take some summary notes from you on what I missed, if you have the time."
"Thank you.", Matthew offers to Jack with a slight smile.
Tabitha starts to pull out from her seat, setting her tote on her shoulder. "Hmph." She wonders, "What is your next class on?"
Jodie leans back in her chair on two legs, testing her balance as she seems content to linger a bit longer even though the seminar is over. While there she plucks the cigarette off her ear and places the filter between her lips while she starts hunting through her pockets for a light of some kind.
"Good seeing you again, Father." Aristotle supplies, lifting a hand to offer him a wave as the seminar seems to wind down. He starts to rise to his feet. "See you guys around."
Jordan watches part of the group that leaves, tracking the man with their eyes, but doesn't leave immediately.
Jordan waves goodbye at Aristotle.
Matthew lifts a hand to wave a few times to Aristotle, giving him a breezy smile.
A wave is offered in return to Jordan, extended to Matthew whom Aristotle states, "Good seeing you in person. Later boys." He provides.
"Always, Mr. Wilson," Jack offers Aristotle. "Be well, please."
"Goodnight, Father," Tabitha says to Jack, turning to leave, but pausing when she is addressed by Isabella. "I'm surprised he was so ... brief ... tonight. Only an hour. I expected the conversation to go on much ... longer."
"I'm starting to feel like I might be a little screwed on those notes." Isabella opines to Tabitha. "Got time to catch me up, our you busy tonight?"
"Good-night, Miss Matheson," Jack tells Tabitha. "Have a good evening." He goes to lean back against the desk, gathering his notes.
Jordan glances to Isabella, then to Matthew, looking slightly distracted. "What are you thinking, Sunshine?"
Jodie finds her zippo in her pocket and for a moment it seems like she might light up brazenly in the classroom. But no. She gets up with her cigarette hanging from her lips, letting it bounce as she talks to Jack, "Thanks for the seminar, I think thats the first time I didn't fall asleep during one."
Matthew hums, leaning back as his eyes flit over thoughtfully to Jordan, seeming distracted himself, as he seems to catch something in his thoughts. "Huh? Oh.. Well, I dunno.", he admits with a lift of his shoulders.
"Sorry," Tabitha says to Isabella, shifting her tote on her shoulder and jostling the items about. "I was heading home. But really, when it comes to the trolley problem... its about your own personal belief system." She walks up to the front of the class where Jack is gathering his things. She says to Jodie, "It was interesting. Most of the teachers are not very memorable. Not like our Father, hm?" She leans on the podium where the Father stands. Probably to speak quietly to him.
Jack glances over at Tabitha as she approaches. "Miss Matheson," he says to her with a smile. "Can I help you?"
"Yeah, our Father is very interesting." Jodie says to Tabitha in agreement, there is a smirk that tugs on her lips and reaches her eyes. All while the cigarette hangs unlit from her lips.
Jordan fingers their bottom lip, rubbing it thoughtfully before whispering to Matthew.
Tabitha nods to Jodie, "Who would have thought he'd have such graceful moves." She remains at the podium, but shifts her attention back to Isabella. "I didn't catch your name."
"I might go, like.. sleep.", Matthew decides on as he gives a stretch, stepping up and out of his seat, looking down to Jordan, before tilting his head to listen to them.
Jordan admits, "That sounds like a great idea, actually. Let me know if... well, you know."
Isabella shrugs then conceding Tabitha with a nod. "Hm? Oh. Isabella Hayes, it's been nice meeting you." She smiles at her and she smiles at Jack and like many before her, also says, "Thank for the lecture, Father." Starting to head to the door after, she stops near Jordan and Matthew, smiling at both. "I like your viewpoints on things, by the way, you're insightful."
Jack tells Isabella, "Have a good night, Miss Hayes. Don't miss Miss Anderson's lecture tomorrow."
"Nice to meet you, too, Isabella. I'm Tabitha." Tabitha says, a hand lifting to flitter her fingers in her direction.
Matthew hums, giving a little thumbs-up to Jordan. "Text me.", he murmurs, before giving a sleepy smile to Isabella. "Thanks.", he states simply.
Jordan nods to Isabella with a smile. "Thanks! I wish you were there at the beginning, but maybe you'll catch more of the fun next time."
Matthew lifts a hand behind him in passing in a manner of saying goodbye, a slight smile on his expression, eyes drifting down to his phone as he leaves.
Isabella never does specify between someone and Jordan as to which one she was talking about, but her slightly bigger smile suggests it mihgt be both. She heads onward up the aisle, fighting a slight limp at the remainder of her injured list time. She waves blindly over her shoulder at the lecture hall on the way out too. "I'll be there!" she promises.
Isabella never does specify between everyone as to which one she was talking about, whole viewpoionts she likes, but her slightly bigger smile shared around suggests it might be all of them. She heads onward up the aisle, fighting a slight limp at the remainder of her injured list time. She waves blindly over her shoulder at the lecture hall on the way out too. "I'll be there!" she promises.
Jordan groans after a moment, letting their head drop dramatically onto the desk. Then, they get up, wandering out, giving someone and Tabitha a wave. "Lemme know about that intake, Father! Sweet dreams to you both."
Jordan groans after a moment, letting their head drop dramatically onto the desk. Then, they get up, wandering out, giving Jack and Tabitha a wave. "Lemme know about that intake, Father! Sweet dreams to you both."
With a single thing mentioned, Tabitha steps away from the podium in order to find her way out into the evening. The sweltering, sticky evening.
Jodie manages to linger till she's about to be the last person here except for Jack, Tabitha gets an upnod on her way out then she plucks the cigarette from her mouth. Unlit and stows it on her ear. With a faint smirk as she looks to Jack, she ask. "Was I a decent student for once?"
Tabitha upnods Jodie, too and dips on out in a soft clack of her heels to leave Jack and her to speak.
The discussion swiftly evolves into an engaging and sprawling debate, touching upon various philosophical doctrines and personal beliefs. Participants raise hypothetical scenarios, such as a world-renowned but morally compromised brain surgeon, to test the boundaries of ethical decision-making. Throughout the seminar, attendees grapple with the concepts of action versus inaction, the value of human life, and the societal implications of their choices. Father Jack guides the conversation with thought-provoking questions and a brief, unexpected musical interlude, encouraging participants to confront the uncomfortable realities of moral responsibility. As the seminar concludes, the room is left with a sense of unresolved tension, underlining the inherent complexities of the Trolley Problem and the profound challenge it poses to individual conscience and societal norms.
(Jack's [White Oak] Seminar: The Trolley Problem)
[Mon Jul 29 2024]
In the Latin Classroom of the Spender Arts and Wellness Center at White Oak
Aged, leather-bound tomes and meticulously annotated manuscripts line the sturdy, oak bookshelves. The soft, filtered sunlight seeps through the stained glass windows, casting a colorful, ethereal glow that dances across the weathered, wooden desks and the intricate, Latin inscriptions adorning the walls. The faint scent of antiquity lingers in the air and the distant murmur of students poring over ancient texts can just barely be heard in the distance.
It is about 90F(32C) degrees.
"I did, yeah. I promise, I'm not one of those alumni that keeps hanging around." Aristotle promises. "I just saw the class subject and was curious."
Jordan hums cheerfully as they waltz back in, then nods to Aristotle. "Good thing to be, I think. Never stop learning, and all."
Tabitha is a little late to the class, swishing herself in while digging around her tote for a notebook and a pen. She smiles big, bright at Jack, it would ... one might think... look a fair bit devilish. "Hello, Father Francis. You are looking well tonight."
Matthew snickers after Aristotle's comment. "Kinda nerdy.", he teases, striding along easily enough. After a beat, he adds, "...I think it's a neat topic too.", in a practical mumble as he takes a seat next to Jordan.
Freya waves at Aristotle, Matthew and Jordan as they make their way in fashionably late.
"There's a few of I don't know," Jack tells the class, indicating Matthew and Silvanus. "But all of you otherwise know me," he says. "I am Father Jack Francis. In addition to being vicar at the chapel, I teach philosophy, religion -- and the applied sciences of the same," he says.
"Hey, nerds are hot." Aristotle says as a retort over towards Matthew as he follows the group he walked in with towards the desks.
Jordan agrees with Aristotle with an energetic nod and a smirk to Matthew before raising their hand.
"They can be.", Matthew concedes to Aristotle with a gratuitous dip of his chin and gesture forward with his hand, before snorting as his eyes flit to Jordan briefly.
Freya texts a few times on her phone, "Sorry apparently a couple of other late stragglers on their way.."
"Yes, Mr. Ellis?" Jack asks Jordan. "And who is your friend?"
"Oh, um. Matt. Matt Demirjian.", Matthew stands back up briefly to introduce himself to Jack. "Pleased to meet your acquaintance.", he adds on, before re-seating himself.
Freya waves at Juniper and Elias from the back of the classroom at the last row of desks with a sortof shellshocked Silvanus sitting next to her.
Jordan asks with nerdy enthusiasm, "You teach about many religions? I can come to you to learn about them? I sort of assumed you'd only teach about Christianity." They move a hand to Matthew, but don't need to introduce him.
Jordan asks with nerdy enthusiasm, "You teach about many religions? I can come to you to learn about them? I sort of assumed you'd only teach about Christianity." They move a hand to Matthew, but don't need to introduce him.
"I do," Jack tells Jordan. "I see some more newcomers," he says to Juniper and Elias. "What are your names?"
"I do," Jack tells Jordan. "I see some more newcomers," he says to Juniper and Elias. "What are your names?"
Tabitha crosses her legs as she settles into the desk in the front, turning her head to the side to look at the newcomers to, even if her eyes were on Jack, in a questioning fashion as if to say: 'what?'
Trying to avoid being the center of attention as he joins late, Elias calls out in response to Jack, "Sorry we are late. The traffic is a bit rough this time of year. I am Elias."
"Juniper Andersen, faculty," Juniper announces herself as well, lifting a hand and giving a wink to some recognized student faces. "Apologies for the tardiness."
Jordan turns to look at someone over their shoulder, giving him a longer look.
Jordan turns to look at Elias over their shoulder, giving him a longer look.
"Are you a student here, Mr. Elias?" Jack asks Elias. that it matters. This seminar is appropriate for all -- ah!" he says to Juniper. "Miss Anderson, I've been wanting to meet you. Welcome to the lecture," he says. He settles, looking around the room. "Everyone, I'm pleased to say that tonight we will talk philosophy. Who has heard about the Trolley Problem before?" he asks the class.
Jordan raises a hand obediently.
Languidly, Aristotle raises his hand in response.
Juniper dutifully raises her hand with an unironic grin.
Jordan raises a hand obediently first.
"Hello, Elias, Juniper. I'm Tabitha," Tabitha says as she slowly turns back to the front and Jack, a bit of a grin playful on her lips. Her hand raises slightly, but not to necessarily be called upon, but there is a bit of a jazz hand given.
Freya lifts her hand now that other people have raised theirs.
Matthew squints, thoughtful for a moment, as he lifts his left hand after a moment.
"I am not a student here. I am just a student of life and it is hard to pass up exploring a philosophical subject." Elias offers to Jack as he makes himself comfortable in the back row of the classroom.
Jodie makes no effort to introduce herself though she does look to the people giving their names to briefly check them out. Once the rounds have been made she looks to Jack and leans forward in her seat to show attentiveness as the topic of the class comes up
Jack cocks his head, and there's a moment -- some song. "With my high-starched collar," he sings. "And my high-topped shoes... I went to lose a jolly hour on the Trolley, and lost my heart instead-" It's an out of place little song, and there's a moment -- a smirk. "All of you," he says. "All of you are too young to know Meet Me In St. Louis, aren't you?" he says. "Mr. Ellis -- tell me what you know about the Trolley Problem," he says.
Silvanus looks up for just a moment, and says "Judy Garland. Absolute classic. My mom was obsessed with her."
From her seat, Tabitha covers her mouth with a hand as if to mask a grin that can't help but to grow far wider at Jack breaking out into song.
Freya turns to look at Silvanus as he sprouts some other language, and her eyebrows raise slightly before lowering as Elias identifies the language. She braces an elbow on the desk infront of her and rests her head on her hand, seemingly not quite used to this kindof seminar before.
"You need to do a little dance if you are going to serenade us, Father." Tabitha says, lowering her hand from her mouth and picking up her pen to take notes. Like a good little student.
"Hypoglycemia and hyperglycemia is about the extent of my Latin... Although.. Maybe they're greek..." Freya looks thoughtful as she glances over at Silvanus.
Jordan blinks in surprise, then laughs. "Maybe." They roll their eyes at something, but answers obediently. "It's a philosophical... puzzle, maybe, or test, governing morality, and the worth of a human life. It's a rather fluid and modular problem, but the basics is usually, "If you are at the track switch for a trolly, and find that there are two sets of individuals tied on the tracks, who you cannot free in time, which track do you have the trolley take? Often, there's five adults on one track, and one child on the other, or something similar. It can get convoluted.""
Jordan blinks in surprise, then laughs. "Maybe." They roll their eyes at something, but answers obediently. "It's a philosophical... puzzle, maybe, or test, governing morality, and the worth of a human life. It's a rather fluid and modular problem, but the basics is usually, 'If you are at the track switch for a trolly, and find that there are two sets of individuals tied on the tracks, who you cannot free in time, which track do you have the trolley take?' Often, there's five adults on one track, and one child on the other, or something similar. It can get convoluted." (fix)
Jordan glances back at Silvanus, not hearing anyone identify the language, with a look of curiosity.
Matthew tilts his head, squinting slightly with a small smile at the song before glancing over to Jordan as they give their explanation of the trolley problem. "It's.. Also a tool for comparing ethical systems.", he begins, crossing his arms. "Like.. Well, like deontology versus utilitarianism.", he considers, leaning an elbow on the desk before him.
Juniper leans to listen to Silvanus before she gives a little smile and an appreciative nod to the man. "Thank you," she mouths to him, without making much sound to detract further from the current lecture point.
"Is that right?" Jack asks Tabitha. "This is serious business," he tells Tabitha, nodding to Jordan. "It is a puzzle. It's about morality. Imagine, if you will... a set of railroad tracks with a switch," he says. "You are the conductor of the train -- and through no fault of you own, five people are working on the tracks ahead you. They misread the schedule. There is no way to warn them," he explains. "But you can throw a switch and go down a track you are not scheduled to travel down, but if you do you will strike and kill one person who is crossing the tracks, believing -- according to the schedule -- that no train is coming."
The priest looks around the class, stepping out into the open area, and he begins to do a little soft-shoe. "Chug, chug went the motor," he sings. "Bump, bump went the brake. Thump, thump, thump went my heartsrings-" There's, sure enough, some dance to match the song, but then Jack pauses for effect. "What do you do? Kill the five, who are not supposed to be on the tracks? Or kill the one, who is?"
Jordan looks over to Matthew, curious.
"Hey, d'you guys think any particular person's answer to the trolley system is a good way to judge their character?" Aristotle wonders, his voice low as it seems his question is reserved for both Matthew and Jordan.
Jodie's eyes sort of just glaze over when Matthew adds his input on words she clearly has no concept of. While she's sitting there she has a idle look on her face, her lips slightly parted as she plays her tongue against the insides of her crooked teeth as if the ADHD is really wanting to break free.
Jack looks around for raised hands at his question.
Silvanus flicks a hand up, lazily. "You kill the one. Unless the one has greater socio-economic or cultural significance. Then you kill the five."
Jordan sighs, saying to Aristotle, "Probably. Though, keep in mind that people have their reasons. Someone may just say what they think is popular or correct, while others will want to be shocking. Personally, I hate it because I either get really coldly logical, or selfish, but many people don't like looking in the mirror, you know?"
Freya's eyes also glaze over slightly at Matthew's big words but she raises a hand in offering towards Jack, "You could run over the five and then shoot the one so they're all dead..." Freya answers perhaps unhelpfully, "Then it's fair right.."
Silvanus twist his hand, curling and uncurling his fingers, "Though again, it depends on what framework you're working within. Marxist-socialist would say that the needs of the common always outweigh the needs of the singular. Egalitarian cultural frameworks would say that death itself is either meaningless, and comes to all, and so it doesn't matter what you choose. OR, that death is not the decision of one man, and that the person at the switch is, in fact, the greatest danger to society."
Jordan looks curiously at Matthew over his words, clearly with questions on their mind.
"I get that." Aristotle says, nodding at Jordan's answer. "People don't like looking into a mirror, but... I think it's always more admirable to just own up to your belief than to try and say something shocking or popular. Lying just kinda closes the door to change, but I guess that's a different topic."
Jordan nods to Aristotle thoughtfully, musing. "We're none of us perfect, why try to be, I suppose."
Jordan confers with Aristotle softly, but doesn't raise their hand.
Silvanus concludes with a faint sniff, letting his hand sort of 'thud' against his desk. "The problem, without an external framework, is an inherent fallacy. Usually. It's posited as a thought experiment only, it has no singular, articulate answer."
Matthew looks over to Aristotle curiously. "I think many people claim one thing but would do another.", he supposes cryptically. To Jordan, he provides, "Why not try to be? Or, well, aspire to be.", with a little grin.
Jordan snaps their fingers. "That's the term, thought experiment. What's your name? I'm Carcosa. And what about what *you* would do?"
Jack tells Freya, "This is a problem that says something about morality, certainly, Miss Joyce -- and that answer, if honest, says something about yours." He looks at Silvanus. "I didn't catch your name, sir," he says. "But you're right -- this is a thought experiment, for college students to explore how we think about moral facts, many of whom have never been introduced to philosophy before." There's some criticism in his tone. "You've forgotten, perhaps, what it was like to be eighteen and fresh in school."
Jordan looks at Silvanus in genuine curiosity, though a smirking smile crosses their lips.
"Oh, if I had to choose, I'd pick being average than being perfect." Aristotle quietly muses. "But, that's probably for my own mental health I think. If I'm trying to be perfect, I'm always failing. Which means, I'm always a failure and every day is a bad day, because perfection isn't attainable. Whereas, if I'm average, I have some perfect days that are great and some days that are less than, but it's not consistently bad. Probably not trolley related, but still."
Jordan nods at Matthew, smiling. "Yeah, you're right... when push comes to shove, that's our realest selves, who we often don't know."
Tabitha turns around to face Silvanus, at his answer, nodding lightly at his studious answer. "Though only an experiment, it poses an interesting question on ethics. If a child, do you save it, the future, or the business men with the social status and experience to make a difference today."
"Doctor Silvanus Gardener, Father, And, you'll excuse me for saying so, but if yu can give me back about two or three decades, I might remember the feeling, Father. But it's been achingly longer than that since I last sat on this side of a lecture hall, you'll have to excuse me. My attendance isn't of my own volition, I fear," Silvanus adds, dipping his head at Freya. "I was, quite literally, picked up and carried here. Please, continue, I apologize for the interjection."
Despite herself, Juniper now lets out a peal of laughter that isn't reserved to their back row of seating.
"It's a thought experiment." Freya agrees with Jack, "So all options should be explored. My options leaves no witnesses. Ethically it may be better to kill the man than to let him live with a lifetime of PSTD rewatching 5 people get crushed by a train over and over again." Freya glances over at Silvanus at his words but she doesn't comment about it. "I like playing devil's advocate."
Juniper puts a hand to her mouth then and clears her throat, quickly regaining her composure.
Jordan clarifies to Silvanus "I meant, which would you do, if you had your hand on the lever?"
"Ultimately, isn't the status quo whatever the most acceptable decision would be? If you happen to find yourself on a trolley speeding down at some people on a track, that might not necessarily be your fault - but if you change the track to direct it at someone, that's your fault. That makes you a murderer.", Matthew supposes somewhat sharply, though there's a twinge of a smile that suggests he's looking for a reaction.
Jordan gives Matthew a smile.
Jack sings, "Clang, clang, clang went the trolley...-" A pause. "Mr. Ellis is right, Mr. Gardener. The question is what you do." He looks at Matthew. "Quite an interesting iteration, Mr. Demirjian, and you're onto something. When you flick the switch it is -you- who has killed. Is that worse? Or does society have it wrong, under that circumstance? When do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?"
"Yes, explore the options. What..." Tabitha asks Jack, "Would your solution be? I think the class'd be interested in hearing." She smiles that red lipped smile, but turns back again to the back rows, awaiting, perhaps to see if Silvanus will also respond.
"Isn't the whole point not to do anything, because by not doing anything you are not responsible?" Jodie says probably pulling that tid-bit of knowledge from thin air.
Jordan emote announces, "I didn't think we'd agree there, Matt. Well, except... you're the conductor in this one. It's your responsibility regardless. The trolley, the lives on it, and the lives on the track are all your responsibility. You signed up for the job, you signed up for the weight of your actions."
Jordan says to Matthew, "I didn't think we'd agree there, Matt. Well, except... you're the conductor in this one. It's your responsibility regardless. The trolley, the lives on it, and the lives on the track are all your responsibility. You signed up for the job, you signed up for the weight of your actions." (fix)
"I think you'd still be responsible either way." Aristotle says, pausing for a moment to contemplate. "I mean, if you -knew- someone was on the track and you didn't do anything, you're still kind of responsible if you had the power to but chose not to."
"Are you not responsible though? If you walk by a homeless guy and you could've offered him a place to stay and you find him froze to death the next morning... Society would LIKE to believe they're not responsible because to do otherwise would mean they should feel guilt." Freya shrugs as she braces both her elbows onto the table. "Whereas if you lived in a small village or tribe environment I bet you would help out."
"Would you?" Jodie questions Aristotle with a smirk. "What if you knew a the best Brain Surgeon in the world was a serial killer. They save a hundred lives a year but once a month they gotta get their jollies and off someone." she tilts her head and ask, "If you arrest them and lock them away, you've just killed at least a hundred people. Is it worth it?"
"Not -legally- responsible, though. Like.. One's maybe negligence, and the other is vehicular manslaughter. The latter's a more serious charge. If we take laws to represent the.. Well, the manifestation of ethical consequences, then.. Ideally you'd take the course of action which renders oneself less liable.", Matthew supposes, leaning his chin on his hand while resting his elbow on his desk, brow furrowed in thought.
"If the best brain surgeon didn't want to be arrested, he maybe shouldn't have killed people." Aristotle says, answering Jodie with a little hike of his shoulder. "There are other surgeons. I'd arrest this one and think nothing of it. After all, each life he saved, he also killed."
"Once more, with feeling, Father." Tabitha requests. Of song? Of dance? She clears her throat. He knows of what. She crosses her legs in a feminine twist.
Jordan argues with Freya "I think that's different. You didn't sign up or volunteer or choose to be in charge of homing the homeless. I don't think you're responsible even in the village. People might call you an asshole, but that's not the same as responsibility." To Matthew, they add, "I mean, I think you'd be legally responsible? Buuuuut, I'm not a law student. If you think that's how it works... then yeah, 5 people... well. Negligence, but is 5 counts worse than one count of manslaughter?"
"Miss Joyce hits the nail on the head," Jack says. "We do encounter the trolley problem all the time." He looks back over at Tabitha. "I have a solution," he says. "But I'd like to see what the class has to say." He nods to Jodie. "This problem gets much worse when it's not a train conductor. If I, for instance, can save a classroom of students by torturing one of them for my own pleasure, is it justified?" he says. "Save a school-full of students by sacrificing a few of them?" he asks. "Save the world by condemning a dozen, now and then, just for sport?"
"Plop, plop, plop went the wheels," he sings, with a little more soft-shoe. "Is it worth crushing someone's soul for pleasure, if it saves the worthy?"
"Ahh but.." Freya turns towards Aristotle. "What if he's the only surgeon in the world who is willing to operate on some people? That no one else will? And if they don't get operated on they might die in a month. And if they do get operated on they might die right away ... or they might live for another 10 years? What if you arrest that one guy and there's no one else who'll do his job? We literally have a brain surgeon like that... He got banned from practicing in Aus so now .. he's practicing in the EU."
"The brain surgeon shouldn't have got caught by a narc." Jodie replies to Aristotle with obvious petulance.
Jordan smiles at Jack, attention pulled right back to him. "Does justice exist? Surely, it's fine. You have a good time, the greater good is saved, and the sacrifice... is unlucky. It's wrong, say many, but it's right, isn't it? You make a martyr."
"Tsk. If he's literally the -only- surgeon, then that village as a whole has an entirely different set of problems, that this hypothetical is not able to address." Aristotle says, chuckling a bit. But, he pauses for a moment to consider. "If this surgeon is the only one, then I'd have to hope that human tenacity would mean that someone else would rise in his absence to fill that need. And in the scenario of saving a class by torturing another student?" He says, motioning over towards Jack. "I figure just say yes until the class is out of danger, and then shoot the problem. But, I'm a cop, so like... critical thinking isn't really what we're tested on."
"The manslaughter's probably worse.", Matthew supposes vaguely in response to Jordan. "The real question becomes, 'what would a reasonable person do in that situation?'", he adds on with a little grin. "Oh, also..", Matthew begins as he taps at his phone, "Looks like... You need to prove that the person *caused* the deaths, for it to be manslaughter, at least in Massachusetts. Sooooo...", he says with a little shrug to them. "If you flick the switch, that's a cause - an 'actus reus'."
"Inaction is worse, I feel, in many cases. If you let them continue, then you are no better than them, no?" Tabitha asks, tapping her pen against her lip in thought. "Actions bring consequences, sure. Inaction is still an action. The choice you took to let it happen." She pouts softly. "There is no easy answer. And our answers are clouded by our own beliefs and experiences. In the case of the trolley, I would choose one over the many. It sucks no matter what, and one I'd have to live with forever. Especially when it becomes that suddenly you find out those five you've let live are monsters."
"He is literally the only neurosurgeon in the entire world that is willing to operate on some brain cancer patients. Charlie Teo. It's not about a village or anything. It's not even a hypothetical. There's people out there who were given weeks to live who are alive 5 years later because of him. Surgeries literally 0 other surgeons will touch because the risk is too great. Anddd you can bet if he no longer operates it is unlikely any other surgeon will take up the mantle. So would you strip him of his license? When his patients understand that they have a 80/ chance to die on the table or face 100/ chance to die in a few weeks?" Freya shrugs a shoulder at Aristotle.
"If he's a serial killer? Yes." Aristotle says, nodding at Freya. "Actions have consequences, and this man's choice, despite his skill, to kill someone else that doesn't deserve it? The consequence, if you get caught, is incarceration or death and, naturally, a loss of your license. The easiest thing this surgeon can do to avoid that, is like... don't kill people."
"Miss Matheson cuts to the quick on morality," Jack says, indicating Tabitha. "The utilitarian says you do what's best, even when it comes at the cost. I think that raises a question," he says. "One Mr. Demirjian and Mr. Ellis hint at, too." He pauses, nodding to Jordan and Matthew. "Who thinks that it might be the right choice for society to kill the one, and all the same make you a monster?"
"What if they can't help it?" Jodie ask Aristotle bluntly. She looks pleased that people are running with her brain surgeon idea and debating it aggressively.
Freya also seems to be enjoying the brain cancer debate, "And what if your mother or child or partner had that brain cancer that ONLY he can operate on. Would you still arrest him?"
Jodie gives Freya a fingergun gesture and pretends to shoot her in a friendly way, she likes where this is going.
"What if we saved the brain surgeon conditionally - by, like.. Drugging him, such that he loses his urge to kill without losing his ability to operate?", Matthew wonders with a squint, hopping in on the brain surgeon angle. "Or, like.. Removed those murderous urges, somehow."
Freya nods to Matthew, "We do that to rapists. Castrate them chemically so they have less ...rapey urges."
"I mean, that isn't impossible." Tabitha says, peeking back at Matthew.
Jodie gives Freya a fingergun gesture and pretends to shoot her in a friendly way, she likes where this is going. "Yeah, it's a Brain surgeon after all, only fucking Wilsons can afford his life saving surgery. By taking him out, you are dooming your family members to brain tumours."
"If the surgeon couldn't help it, then, I don't know, maybe we could chain him up, or sedate him, when he's feeling that... 'urge.'" Aristotle says, solutions a bit too specific but otherwise he's glossing over it.
Jordan sits back in their chair and raises their hand. "Better to do a one. Surely it makes one an even greater monster to sacrifice the many out of a fear of feeling or looking bad?"
Freya turns to look at Juniper, patting her arm. "Sorry I should've grabbed him so he can't run but I got distracted debating.." She gives Juniper a rueful look before looking out the door. "He seems okay though?"
"That's an interesting response," Jack tells Matthew and Freya. "You're not alone. Most people, when confronted with the trolley problem, want to change the rules so they don't have to choose." He pauses. "But here's the thing -- chug, chug, chug, goes the motor," he sings. "The problem is real. We -are- confronted with this choice." He looks to Jordan. "I promised I wouldn't get into religion," he says. "But I'm hard-pressed not to wonder if there's a story somewhere in the Bible about sacrificing one for the many."
"Heh. Is it Jesus?" Aristotle wonders of Jack, a little amused.
Jodie leans back in her seat and thumbs her phone under her desk, hiding it as if she had to hide it from the teacher. Though she doesn't even go here as a student does she?
Jordan grins at Aristotle, nodding, then back at Jack. "Yeah, we all want to have our cake and eat it, too. It's human nature. And I'm sure someone did die for my sins. Tortured, too."
"Not fear. Principle.", Matthew counters Jordan, cupping his chin. "Otherwise, what precedent does that set for the future? If it's *sometimes* okay to murder one person to save five, what about murdering four to save five? What about eleven to save twelve?", he wonders with a squint.
Isabella struts along down the main aisle with her head held high, and heads right for the front row, acting like she's not even late, mostly. She gives Jack a quick smile, sitting toward the edge of the row before glancing down it.
"The Christ story makes it easier though, doesn't it?" Jack asks Jordan. "In the Bible, he chose to die for your sins. "The question is -- is it still okay if I choose someone to die to save you? Is it okay if Miss Matheson chooses someone whose suffering makes your life better?" he says. "If Miss Joyce brutalizes an innocent so you can live free?" He looks up at Isabella. "Welcome. I don't have your name, Miss.""
Tabitha smiles faintly to Isabella when she takes a seat somewhere in the front. Then, as Matthew ups the ante of what number of lives matters, the redhead frowns, her red brows furrowing inward. "Hmmm," she says, softly, thoughtful. "In the end, it comes to the fact that you can not save everyone. No matter how hard that you may try. And ultimately, all the time you spend trying to save others, who would actually save you?" A bit out of left field, but relevant all the same.
Isabella lifts her head a bit more and grabs the front divider for support, having a slight lag in her standing motion. "Sorry, I'm Isabella Hayes, Kinesiology major. Sorry I'm so late." She looks like she wants to say more, but then presses her lips together. Looking aside just then, she returns the smile to Tabitha and takes her seat again.
Jordan nods with a shrug, mostly to Jack. "That's what history says. Those who died for our rights are heroes. Drafted soldiers, the passengers on 9/11, sacrifices. They're heroes, martyrs, and are good and well because we're alive today because of them."
Jack glances up at the clock. "We've been at this for about an hour," he says. "There's never answers, in a seminar like this." He pauses. "The Trolley Problem isn't one of those things we can solve -- clang, clang, clang, it goes," he says, singing just a little. "It's something we have to live with. Does anyone have some last thoughts they want to share before we wind tonight's seminar down?"
Jack glances up at the clock. "We've been at this for about an hour," he says. "There's never answers, in a seminar like this." He pauses. "The Trolley Problem isn't one of those things we can solve -- clang, clang, clang, it goes," he says, singing just a little. "It's something we have to live with. Does anyone have some last thoughts they want to share before we wind tonight's seminar down?"
"I want to know what you would actually do Father." Jodie tells Jack with a sweet, innocent smile. "Five people, or one child? Who dies?"
Isabella inclines an ear to Jordan's direction, turning her head. She raises her hand, looking at Jordan and opines, "Yeah, just a little devil's advocate to add to what he said. I believe it's all a matter of perspective." She turns a palm up, smiling at Jordan and offering, "On the other side of the world, in the middle east, the same people labeled as terrorists over here where the martyrs over there."
Jordan leans in, amused, watching Jack with an expectation, clearly with an idea on his answer.""
Jack turns to look at Jodie. "Miss Moore," he tells Jodie. "It's an awful choice," he says. "But like I said -- it's one we all face." A beat. "And when we do, when I do? The child has died." He says it in a tone that suggests that for a moment, this is not philosophy at all.
Jordan flashes Isabella a grin before saying, "Them, not him."
Jodie subtly flinches when Jack gets a little too serious for her taste and answers her question honestly. Perhaps she was just looking for something more amusing to keep things interesting for her. Either way, she stops talking.
Isabella turns her head suddenly again, this time to stare at Jack. She stays silent, considering his answer with her head tilted a bit.
Jordan smiles triumphantly to Jack, asking, "Because they are pure and innocent and automatically go to heaven, while you may be condemning the adults to hell without a chance at redemption in their final moment?"
Isabella shakes her head slightly then, glancing at Jordan before guessing, "Because if he saves the child he's killed five. He save's the five he's only killed one."
"I figured it's the child too because it might be the case of measuring which trauma is worse, growing up an orphan or outliving your children, but... yeah, heaven too." Aristotle opines.
"If he never flicks the switch though, he kills nobody himself and spares whoever's left.", Matthew supposes, eyes flitting about.
Jordan tilts their head to Isabella while keeping their eyes trained at Jack. It's clear that they believe that they're right, but curious as to whether or not the others have the point.
"There is always hope of Redemption." Tabitha says.
Jack turns slowly to look at Jordan. "No," he says to Jordan, enunciating each word. "We are all of us in some moral war, Mr. Ellis. The child -- innocent or not, saved or not -- is a casualty. We save who we can, even when the cost is high." He looks around. "Action and inaction are the same coin. When you have power -- it's always your choice."
A pause. "I think that's a good place to end our seminar for tonight."
Jordan hums softly before murmuring, "I think that means that Aristotle got it right."
Isabella smiles to herself, enjoying a small victory of hearing similarities in Jack's answer, even if his version of it was noble, and her own so dark.
Freya nods at Juniper, "Sure." She flashes Elias another smile.
"Give us one last dance?" Tabitha half-orders, half-asks Jack, with clear amusement and half-masked glee, while her pen twirls about in the air, then is dropped into her tote.
Juniper stands from her back row desk and makes to excuse herself from the classroom. "Excellent choice for a rousing debate, Father," she calls before she leaves. "Appreciate you allowing our attendance."
"I don't think so," Jack answers Tabitha's question, though there's a little bit of a movement despite his response. "Thank you all for coming," he says.
Freya follows after Juniper, trailing the other woman, "Thank you for the lecture. Stimulating topic Father." She tells him as she files out behind the other professor.
Jordan nods, musing. "Thank you for the lesson, Father."
Isabella goes through her slightly slowed standing process again, "I do have another question.", she says to Jack, "Could I approach the front, Father? I'd like to take some summary notes from you on what I missed, if you have the time."
"Thank you.", Matthew offers to Jack with a slight smile.
Tabitha starts to pull out from her seat, setting her tote on her shoulder. "Hmph." She wonders, "What is your next class on?"
Jodie leans back in her chair on two legs, testing her balance as she seems content to linger a bit longer even though the seminar is over. While there she plucks the cigarette off her ear and places the filter between her lips while she starts hunting through her pockets for a light of some kind.
"Good seeing you again, Father." Aristotle supplies, lifting a hand to offer him a wave as the seminar seems to wind down. He starts to rise to his feet. "See you guys around."
Jordan watches part of the group that leaves, tracking the man with their eyes, but doesn't leave immediately.
Jordan waves goodbye at Aristotle.
Matthew lifts a hand to wave a few times to Aristotle, giving him a breezy smile.
A wave is offered in return to Jordan, extended to Matthew whom Aristotle states, "Good seeing you in person. Later boys." He provides.
"Always, Mr. Wilson," Jack offers Aristotle. "Be well, please."
"Goodnight, Father," Tabitha says to Jack, turning to leave, but pausing when she is addressed by Isabella. "I'm surprised he was so ... brief ... tonight. Only an hour. I expected the conversation to go on much ... longer."
"I'm starting to feel like I might be a little screwed on those notes." Isabella opines to Tabitha. "Got time to catch me up, our you busy tonight?"
"Good-night, Miss Matheson," Jack tells Tabitha. "Have a good evening." He goes to lean back against the desk, gathering his notes.
Jordan glances to Isabella, then to Matthew, looking slightly distracted. "What are you thinking, Sunshine?"
Jodie finds her zippo in her pocket and for a moment it seems like she might light up brazenly in the classroom. But no. She gets up with her cigarette hanging from her lips, letting it bounce as she talks to Jack, "Thanks for the seminar, I think thats the first time I didn't fall asleep during one."
Matthew hums, leaning back as his eyes flit over thoughtfully to Jordan, seeming distracted himself, as he seems to catch something in his thoughts. "Huh? Oh.. Well, I dunno.", he admits with a lift of his shoulders.
"Sorry," Tabitha says to Isabella, shifting her tote on her shoulder and jostling the items about. "I was heading home. But really, when it comes to the trolley problem... its about your own personal belief system." She walks up to the front of the class where Jack is gathering his things. She says to Jodie, "It was interesting. Most of the teachers are not very memorable. Not like our Father, hm?" She leans on the podium where the Father stands. Probably to speak quietly to him.
Jack glances over at Tabitha as she approaches. "Miss Matheson," he says to her with a smile. "Can I help you?"
"Yeah, our Father is very interesting." Jodie says to Tabitha in agreement, there is a smirk that tugs on her lips and reaches her eyes. All while the cigarette hangs unlit from her lips.
Jordan fingers their bottom lip, rubbing it thoughtfully before whispering to Matthew.
Tabitha nods to Jodie, "Who would have thought he'd have such graceful moves." She remains at the podium, but shifts her attention back to Isabella. "I didn't catch your name."
"I might go, like.. sleep.", Matthew decides on as he gives a stretch, stepping up and out of his seat, looking down to Jordan, before tilting his head to listen to them.
Jordan admits, "That sounds like a great idea, actually. Let me know if... well, you know."
Isabella shrugs then conceding Tabitha with a nod. "Hm? Oh. Isabella Hayes, it's been nice meeting you." She smiles at her and she smiles at Jack and like many before her, also says, "Thank for the lecture, Father." Starting to head to the door after, she stops near Jordan and Matthew, smiling at both. "I like your viewpoints on things, by the way, you're insightful."
Jack tells Isabella, "Have a good night, Miss Hayes. Don't miss Miss Anderson's lecture tomorrow."
"Nice to meet you, too, Isabella. I'm Tabitha." Tabitha says, a hand lifting to flitter her fingers in her direction.
Matthew hums, giving a little thumbs-up to Jordan. "Text me.", he murmurs, before giving a sleepy smile to Isabella. "Thanks.", he states simply.
Jordan nods to Isabella with a smile. "Thanks! I wish you were there at the beginning, but maybe you'll catch more of the fun next time."
Matthew lifts a hand behind him in passing in a manner of saying goodbye, a slight smile on his expression, eyes drifting down to his phone as he leaves.
Isabella never does specify between someone and Jordan as to which one she was talking about, but her slightly bigger smile suggests it mihgt be both. She heads onward up the aisle, fighting a slight limp at the remainder of her injured list time. She waves blindly over her shoulder at the lecture hall on the way out too. "I'll be there!" she promises.
Isabella never does specify between everyone as to which one she was talking about, whole viewpoionts she likes, but her slightly bigger smile shared around suggests it might be all of them. She heads onward up the aisle, fighting a slight limp at the remainder of her injured list time. She waves blindly over her shoulder at the lecture hall on the way out too. "I'll be there!" she promises.
Jordan groans after a moment, letting their head drop dramatically onto the desk. Then, they get up, wandering out, giving someone and Tabitha a wave. "Lemme know about that intake, Father! Sweet dreams to you both."
Jordan groans after a moment, letting their head drop dramatically onto the desk. Then, they get up, wandering out, giving Jack and Tabitha a wave. "Lemme know about that intake, Father! Sweet dreams to you both."
With a single thing mentioned, Tabitha steps away from the podium in order to find her way out into the evening. The sweltering, sticky evening.
Jodie manages to linger till she's about to be the last person here except for Jack, Tabitha gets an upnod on her way out then she plucks the cigarette from her mouth. Unlit and stows it on her ear. With a faint smirk as she looks to Jack, she ask. "Was I a decent student for once?"
Tabitha upnods Jodie, too and dips on out in a soft clack of her heels to leave Jack and her to speak.