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New Haven RPG > H7 feels like it’s becoming an RDM

New HavenForumsGame DiscussionH7 feels like it’s becoming an RDM

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 33 total)
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  • Luka
    Participant

    Yes, I know, two posts in a row where I appeal to the community for healthier play, very cringe. But, OOC chat is p2p and people don’t really talk OOC so much unless they’re in the same clique, so it’s not so easy to just have a conversation with people without bringing it to the forums.

    As title suggests, there’s a lot of RDMing going on. I’ve seen people, including myself (three times now), killed for the tiniest possible things. I’ve yet to see a kill that I felt contributed to a story, I’ve yet to see a kill that didn’t seem as if it was OOC motivated, and everyone who is getting killed is getting killed exclusively by people who aren’t even trying to involve themselves in that character’s story to begin with.

    This is not what anyone has in mind when they envision a version of Haven where sanctuary doesn’t exist. I was in support of sanctuary being removed, and hopeful for the game we’d get when it was removed, but removing sanctuary was a risk and it looks like it’s not a risk going well. It feels like we’re very quickly sliding towards the worst case scenario of what people were concerned the game would be without sanctuary.

    All that said, I STILL don’t think sanctuary should be re-instated. This isn’t a mechanics issue, this is a player issue. The players need to stop using that ‘execute’ command so goddamn much, and need to understand that if they don’t know the person they’re executing well, they are not in a position to make an accurate judgement on whether or not them using that execute command is going to tell a good story or a bad one.

    This is not a league of legends match, this is a story telling game. Please keep this in mind.


    Rev
    Participant

    I hear you on the frustration with the current state of play. You’re right, the game can’t tell a good story if people are just using the execute command to end every interaction.

    But what you’re describing isn’t just a player issue, it’s a two-way street.

    You mentioned people aren’t trying to get involved in your character’s story, but you have to give them something to work with. If a player tries to engage you as a prisoner and you consistently shut down the roleplay—whether it’s by spamming gestures to be ungagged twenty times or by just refusing to engage with the scene—you’re actively making it impossible for a story to happen.

    When other players are met with that kind of resistance, where do you expect the story to go? Your character’s lack of cooperation doesn’t create tension; it creates a dead end. When you act like a difficult prisoner who won’t roleplay, you are effectively telling the other players that the only available outcome is to end the scene.

    We all want to tell a good story. But if we’re not willing to accept the bad parts and the difficult scenarios as a chance to create a story, then we can’t be surprised when people get frustrated and decide to end the scene the only way you’ve allowed them.


    Luka
    Participant

    Rev, I 100% agree with everything you’ve said here. If someone is making it clear they don’t want to be in the scene, you should remove them from the scene.

    However, whilst I agree with everything you said, there was an implication you didn’t say, which was “You should end the scene by killing their character”, which I do not agree with. There are several ways to end a scene with someone, up to and including wordlessly removing their binds and booting them out onto the street. I get that combat can be risky, and people are upset when they run those risks, and then don’t feel like they’re getting the IC rewards they want for having won after taking those risks, but RDMing is not the answer. There is lots you can do. You can adddesc, you can roughup, you can steal items, you can villain monologue for the two hours it takes for them to undo their binds. There’s lots of options here that don’t involve RDM. Saying that you only possible option for dealing with someone who wants out of a scene is to get them out of that scene by killing them seems awfully unimaginative to me.

    Also, hundred percent agree with Bean. If you want people to give you good victim RP, you need to first give them good antag RP. Expecting someone to chug an energy drink and get on their A game to RP out their screams and squirms for you after you won a combat with them just because you won that combat is not enough.

    That being said, this isn’t a personal attack against anyone who’s antagged me, I will 100% agree that losing combats often (But not always!) tilts the fuck out of my desire to RP and a large part of that IS ON ME, that is certainly a personal flaw of mine. But I also think a lot of people are like this at least a little and I don’t think this is something people deserve to be RDM’d over.


    Matias
    Participant

    It is human nature when conflict arises and communication fails to err the side of caution and remove the threat. Those we cannot communicate with we cannot trust and those we cannot trust we cannot trust not to hurt us. This is the basis of a lot of misery in the world. As a pretty decent episode of Doctor Who once said. War is just the thing people do before they finally end up in the place they were always going to end up across the table from one another talking.

    I personally think that characters in the archetype like Luka would have very high survivability if the players of those kind of characters can take it on the chin. Is it asking a lot? Maybe. But it costs so little to play bravado, show cracks in the mask of fear, and in the interest of survival compromise. I think in most hostage / prisoner scenes all people want is the following and not always in this order.

    1. Acknowledgement they have won this fight and you have lost in the form of RP reaction signifying the precarious or vulnerable state you are in.

    2. Dialogue to understand why the conflict happened, that whoever lost the conflict knows they have lost, and some means assurance that FOR NOW you have won this battle HE-MAN and then skeletor escape after they let you go.

    I don’t know if it will work 100% of the time but I feel like when a character / player makes themselves vulnerable they often (not always) get a lot of leeway to live another day.


    Matias
    Participant

    My presumption when talking about characters in the archetype of Luka is aggressive antagonistic characters. Which are fine this is Haven antagonism is the name of the game. However because the archetype is predicated on threats and intimidation that means technically they are not normally the victims. I do not know what happened this time but to my knowledge (which is limited) the majority of significant injury or death have happened when the losing side triggered hostility either intentionally or unintentionally.

    If you are hunted down by someone and attacked, kidnapped, and you were just chilling. They start talking about stuff you did 1-2 deaths ago. I would agree you are a victim. I think it is generally courtesy that if someone gets KILLED for their behaviour you kind of go okay well punishment delivered. No need to keep killing them ad infinity. In that case the onus of heavy lifting shifts from the aggressive/antagonistic character to the hunter. You gotta sell someone on why something they have already died for is getting them killed, again.


    bean
    Participant

    it is funny to me that you compare the situation to women getting sa’d. because to me it reads like a dude getting unmatched on tinder, and then spending the next few weeks trying to track this woman down for an explanation on why he was unmatched, why he didn’t get a second date, why she didn’t acknowledge he’s nice. you are not the woman getting sa’d in this scenario, you are the man who winds up with a restraining order, still demanding an explanation from someone who wants to be left alone.


    Luka
    Participant

    I’m sure I even agree with killing in that situation Matias. Even in a game where antagonism and even competitive antagonism are common, you still shouldn’t be RDMing. Luka is aggressive, and he is antagonistic, but he hasn’t ever killed anyone he’s gotten his hands on, and he wouldn’t because I don’t think it would create a good story if it did.

    If we make the rule to be “You can kill people so long as you can come up with a reason for why you killed them” then people will just continue to RDM because it is not at all difficult to pull a casus belli out of your ass at any given moment for any given reason. The onus needs to be on players to not be trying to justify ways to kill people, and instead to be justifying ways to not steer the story in directions where everyone is enjoying the story being told. And if they can’t do that, they need to start trying to figure out how to extract themselves from that story as seamlessly as possible. RDM is not the answer.


    Matias
    Participant

    Like I said. I think the majority of players will not kill someone they have won over if that person provides RP, communication, and some vulnerability. Give the victor their due. A little acknowledgement of being in a losing position or afraid earns a lot of good will. If you cannot do that to avoid death than its kind of like you are wanting an OOC consensus sanctuary in lieu of a mechanical sanctuary. Which is fine if that is the way we want to take the game.


    Luka
    Participant

    I don’t want an OOC consensus sanctuary, I just think PC death should be something treated with more weight and done to support stories. There is a whole load of grey area because “No one can kill anyone ever because mechanics physically restrain you from doing so” and the RDM we’ve got going on right now.


    Luka
    Participant

    I don’t want an OOC consensus sanctuary, I just think PC death should be something treated with more weight and done to support stories. There is a whole load of grey area BETWEEN* “No one can kill anyone ever because mechanics physically restrain you from doing so” and the RDM we’ve got going on right now.


    Matias
    Participant

    In the Supernatural world death doesn’t have weight though. Every vampire/werewolf pretty much mercs 1 person a month right? The Hand probably has child slave labor and when the kids get to old they send them off to fae games and then when they are pscyhologically broken they send them to an aslyum with demonborn doctors to feed on their suffering. The Supernatural world is harsh and transactional and no one is safe. That is the scary part. I think the deaths (I know of) have created a lot of fallout RP. It isn’t like everyone went shrug well that happened lets go to happy hour! I think a lot of people have taken the deaths and made lemonade with them.

    I still maintain if you do not want to make it ‘easy’ or even ‘desirable’ for someone to kill you. You need to give them a reason not too. That reason is RP. Alternatively if they have killed you without any good reason. Then you know maybe they are a dangerous lunatic and they need to be put down themselves?


    Luka
    Participant

    “Alternatively if they have killed you without any good reason. Then you know maybe they are a dangerous lunatic and they need to be put down themselves?”

    This is the case, yes. But I don’t like this. “Everyone just goes around killing everyone and no one tells any meaningful stories beyond ‘who has the biggest numbers'” is not what I come to Haven for. This is RDM. I do not want RDM. I don’t want to just kill everyone. Not only will I then be contributing to the problem myself, but those people will just make new characters and continue to RDM as we’ve not established a precedent for how the game is played.


    Matias
    Participant

    The game is barely staffed in terms of active control of in-character situations via NPCs or commentary.

    We have 3 strong deterrents to bad faith actors: take all their shit, maim them, or kill them.

    Ironically taking all their shit is financially ruinous and might actually affect their combat abilities. Maiming them is not as easy to undo as death and is a permanent impediment. Death is actually mechanically the least significant thing. Like I said irony.

    Now if a player/character or group of player/characters believe someone is doing stuff they do not like in RP, but they are not giving them what they want OOC (this is the give the victor their moment of weakness suggestion) than killing them sends a pretty clear message. These actions and this response equal this outcome.

    So in the case of someone like RG who is notoriously problematic. They make a character. Try and attack the same group or person multiple times and then refuses to RP out their loss state of being beaten and taken prisoner. They will simply kill her character. The tool exists and if they killed someone who anyone cared about they will rez them but the message has been sent right. Do not do THAT whatever THAT was.

    So 100% if someone hunts Luka (or anyone else down) and mercs them for little to no reason. The appropriate response is probably to turn around and merc them back or maim them (which as I noted is even worse punishment).


    Luka
    Participant

    I mean, yeah, if someone is acting in bad faith they should probably be deterred Matias, but the people who are getting killed to my knowledge have not been acting in bad faith. Obviously the rules are flipped when people are acting in bad faith or we have an RG situation going on, but I’m pretty confident that’s not what’s been happening here.

    Also, Rev, I appreciate your frustrations, I really do. I’m not going to argue whether or not I am doing what you say since whilst I don’t feel I do it quite to the extent you’re making out that I do, I certainly do what you’re describing at least a little.

    What I’d like to argue is instead that, if you want to tell an antagonistic story with someone who doesn’t want you to tell an antagonistic story with them, maybe just don’t tell that story with them. Sometimes people do just prefer to be in the driver’s seat of a story, and that might not be to your tastes, but that is okay.

    Upping the anti and doubling down in the hopes that if you inflict enough mechanical consequences on them that they’ll start wanting to tell stories that have you in the driver’s seat is not usually a working strategy.


    Luka
    Participant

    Also maims are not permanent, you just do ‘procedure restore’ in a medical facility and if you have 350 favor (Which is a chunk of change but not super loads) you’ll be restored. Your LF comes back too, which is nice.

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