Haven Redux

[Crayon]

I didn’t want to engage with this because the OP specifically requested no arguments, however, I feel obligated to defend Dad’s honor here:

[quote=Evermore]Of people being able to impose veterancy and superiority over others.[/quote]

[quote=Evermore]But, no, I also genuinely believe the Hunt is a terrible mechanic that does little motivate/incentivize players, and mostly exists to cripple someone, stifle progress, etc.[/quote]

You lost me here. The entire point of the Hunt and similar mechanics is to keep the MUD from becoming topheavy with karma wealthy players stockpiling, retaining, and using karma faster than any new player could hope to catch up with. The mechanic you’re complaining about most does the thing you claim to want most.

[quote=Ama86]the part of Haven that was consistently popular. That’s it’s school sphere. Nothing else ever stood up to the test of time. All other aspects of Haven, across its versions, failed to be good enough to really get the population outside the school sphere to be enough to sustain a game.[/quote]

School spheres are cool.

Haven’s school spheres are actually [i]historically unpopular[/i]. The [i]appearance[/i] of thriving only came about by completely isolating that sphere of the game in a small sub-sphere where the size of the sphere facilitated more engagement.

In Haven 1, to the best of my knowledge, there was no school. It was mostly a concept of a school. Theoretically there was a Haven High somewhere and it had students and a football team called the Gatekeepers maybe, but it didn’t exist physically and virtually nobody incorporated it into their characters’ backgrounds.

In Haven 2, there was a physical school, but it was virtually never used and the players of school age characters pretty much never went to school or did things at the school.

In Haven 3, there was a school, it was incredibly unpopular, and a handful of especially stinky eggs drove changes that would come in the next iteration.

In Haven 4, there was a school and school age characters were limited to playing in that school. For the first time it became somewhat popular.

In Haven 5, the school remained, but play in it was seasonal and largely contingent on large groups of active, story-centric roleplayers joining it at the same time. There were a few windows of success but for the most part, every time those player groups bounced in disgust, the sphere would crumble.

In Haven 6, ???.

In Haven 7, there is a college sphere and it’s not super popular.

For most of Haven’s existence the school sphere has been unpopular or nonexistent.

[quote=Evermore]Of people wanting others to play how they felt the lore/mechanics should be interpreted.[/quote]

Yes, that’s how collaborative narrative works. We all have a set of guidelines and rules in the form of a very deliberately light lore we’re supposed to be following, and as this is a written medium, the only things keeping us coloring within the lines are ourselves and each other. Haven is very, very, very deliberately designed to have as lightweight, easily-learned, and nonrestrictive lore as physically possible specifically to make it easier for newbies to adjust and get up to speed. If [i]that[/i] lore and the expectations it brings are too much… I don’t know what to tell you, mate.

[quote=Alpha]maybe the issue with H7 isn’t the Wild Hunt[/quote]

I actually had a friend keeping an eye on the login metrics for Haven around this time period because I could kind of smell the direction the wind was blowing and wanted to have a finger on the pulse so I could try to identify what was making it so weak. The biggest dropoff was actually a month or two before the Wild Hunt, around when I started phasing out of play. I don’t know anybody else’s particulars, but I felt like I was running into bugs around every corner, it was taking them a while to get fixed, and I was too tired to keep trucking. That’s not a knock on Nova, I’d have been fried after a [i]fraction[/i] of all that work & months of opening bug fixes too. After the first dip, the Hunt delivered a second big dip, but I would argue that at that point the game was already self-selecting for players that overvalue long-term code power and perceive systems like karma as incentive structures moreso than as permission structures.

[Crayon]

@bean
Garbanzo.

[Evermore]

“The biggest dropoff was actually a month or two before the Wild Hunt, around when I started phasing out of play.” That’s actually interesting. I was of belief that the Hunt was the main detractor. That does sway my opinion of it slightly, and actually helps understand the other factors that caused either quick burn-out or just general disinterest in the continuation of this cycle. I came in around early December, I want to say, and was away for Christmas to come back about 1.5 month later, late January. By that time, player count had significantly dropped from what I previously saw on the Who list. And a lot of conversation was going on about the Hunt, so I guess that biased my perception of it.

Also, to elaborate on what I don’t like about the Wild Hunt currently is that it doesn’t seem to work with the current amount of players. The first Hunt I was hit by pretty much swept everyone excl 2-3 people. If it hits again come August, it’s likely going to grab every character again, safe for one or two. I am not against the idea of a system existing to prevent a game from becoming too top-heavy. One of my issues with a MU* I played before Haven was how it had also reached a state where just about everyone walking around kind of ended up being this master-of-all bundle of bloat, and little was required to maintain such a position in the game’s power balance. In an ideal state, with the RPXP and Karma bonuses later introduced, and enough people around to actively engage in encounters and plots, the loss of the Hunt could probably be regained within that first month. The last time that happened, it was a different story.

Appreciate your input/corrections, Crayon – genuinely.

[leah]

hello my friends

i just want to chime in and say a few things:

1. the idea of a haven classic is a good idea and was one of the foundational ideas that we wanted to build on over at duskholm.

2. in no way do we at duskholm agree with any sentiment that we’ve made a better game, nor would we ever dream of downplaying the 15 years of Haven development that Nova very generously gave out for free to us and the rest of the world with no expectations for any sort of credit (although if you look at HELP HAVEN in duskholm or my announcements in our forum you will find me dick riding Nova into the sunset for everything he’s done)

3. i have always advertised that we at duskholm don’t suggest that we should be your main game, and that if you just play duskholm during your haven downtime, we’d appreciate that.

Pooch and I have no interest in competing with haven, we love haven, we love Nova and Discordance and Editor and we are eternally grateful to run a copy of what they built, and anyone who espouses rhetoric to the contrary, or espouses rhetoric of any form of duskholm superiority does not have a vision that is in-line with that of the duskholm staff.

To Nova specifically: If you’re going to do this, I think usurping H7 with H:R is the only way it works. Splintering the pbase between two Havens might not be possible with the dwindling population of our hobby. You know better than I do, that’s just my two cents. Thanks for everything, I love you, and tell Mom I love her.

[Matthew]

FWIW, I prefer the Big City setting over Small Town. H7 was my favorite iteration of Haven. I played H4 and H5, but skipped H6 because I was tired of Blackfield and the trope of humans remaining mostly unaware while we pretended supernatural shenanigans weren’t happening. That song and dance was fun for a while, but eventually, I wanted to drop the veil and play in a purely supernatural setting. H7 delivered that, it was refreshing and fun. It had some rough edges, sure, but it worked.

As for a Haven Redux, I’m not going to say I won’t play it, but I don’t see myself being motivated or inspired to dive into an old reboot version. Especially not if it brings back classic Blackfield, kid characters, etc.

Things from this system that I would like to see stay: Myhaven, Fated characters, The Great Hunt (but with some tweaks that made it purely opt-in), premade factions and societies (elimination of player-made ones).
Things from previous iteartions I want to see retained: player made coms usingi the radios (unsure if they were eliminated in H5 or not, but I remember them fondly from H4).

[Dream]

There is an entire mud devoted to blackfield and its not suddenly more successful that Haven 7 was pre-Wild hunt.

So its dubious to say that that Blackfield was the reason for the game falling apart because people from blackfield were holding it all together. That sort of bias comes from someone who must’ve really enjoyed blackfield and fortunately has a mud to play that is exactly their cup-o-tea.

As for Crayon there was always a more elegant way to avoid top heaviness by improving bottom tiers, rewarding bottom tiers and softening the blow of dying so that people just turned over properly.

For game design that seemed DETERMINED to get rid of your characters after 5-8 months. It really didn’t want you to die permanently in any way. Either sanctuary made you unkillable, or being cheaply resurrected made you unkillable. All opportunities for turn over were purely through these funny little mechanics that were more unsatisfying than just getting murdered in a HORROR themed game.

[Nymfette]

I would rather wait for h8 and see the many things on h7 be even better and be even cooler in some years than a redux. Too many arguments over the past.

[Alpha]

Shana Tova to all who celebrate.

In no particular order:

Now isn’t the time for H8 imo. We were promised 5K & a fresh theme, fresh setting, and new systems deserve full focus, not sharing a focus with a new Haven version.

Fully agree with whoever said ‘no kid characters’. Far more trouble than they’re worth.

Making it easy to kill people opens the game up to griefing, people getting killed for blatantly OOC reasons, and since people treat conflict as an ever-escalating competition to out-misery each other back and forth until someone is too exhausted and disheartened to continue, murder becomes the shortcut to a ‘win’. Sanctuary isn’t perfect and neither is resurrection, but in a game that is by-and-large self-policed by people who don’t tend to demonstrate a willingness to put narrative before winnery displays of dominance, satisfying story deaths are unlikely.

[Evalina]

TBH I think all the versions had their own appeal but of the ones I tried, H7 by far feels like the highest potential, just, lots of issues.

You asked for no essays so,

I am really not interested in a retro experience, I think it’d appeal to nostalgia for a week and then bore.

I am interested in a fixed experience with a much smaller map – I thought the start of H6 (all stuck in the Lodge) was fantastic fun and I’d love to see an iteration or side experience on that kind of premise.

[Talia]

There were three drop-offs. One around the end of July after the first issues cropped up, a big one during September/October when the issues got worse (Haven would be unreachable for days at a time, up to a week even) but the sharpest and biggest was still the Wild Hunt. Before that the population seemed to have stabilized and while it was lower than H6 it was still active with people willing to ride it out.

The Wild Hunt was the coup the grace. I don’t want to dwell on the issues of H7, but in a sea of them this was the killing blow. Not the loveless school sphere, not the over use of AI, not even the bugs or the big, empty grid. It was the Wild Hunt.

https://mudstats.com/World/NewHaven

[Dream]

Interesting graph, I think a mud that has 15 players has a better chance of recovery than a mud that has 5 players post wild hunt though.

[Ouroboros]

Feels like a fair few more people are pro this than not, so going to go ahead. I’d say even if H7 is your favourite version this is probably a good thing for you since H7 will be in the cycle to come back and you’ll get to play it with a new surge of players and more bug fixes/improvements etc at that point.

A lot of discussion does feel like people just finding different ways to reinforce their own theories or preferences but I would say, I agree absolutely that secrecy decay, doom and the wild hunt are bad. I just find it a lot harder to buy that the thing that would work better is nothing. I’ve never had anything but a miserable experience trying to jump into a game with uncontrolled power creep. It’s challenging because obviously people really like the feeling of getting stronger, of having goals to work towards etc. From what I could see the big slump wasn’t really the wild hunt, it was like a month or so after the wild hunt and that is because I imagine that’s what progression started to feel pointless, or people started to feel like they were on a treadmill to nowhere, which is not great for motivation. But without anything you get a bunch of people climbing to the top, a bunch of those then experience the same pointless feeling since there’s no where really much to go or strive for but worse and leave, then a few stay at the top because they just really, really like being more powerful than other people, that’s what’s fun for them and then that’s your game, a few really powerful power junkies and a rotating cast of newbies for them to lord over.

Obviously, the reason why I changed from secrecy decay to doom to wild hunt to horizontal progress/timeskips in R5k is because I don’t think I’ve solved the problem and keep trying some other approach. I changed from secrecy decay to doom so people would have a clear point to reset instead of feeling trapped on a character whose influence was diminishing. I changed from doom to wild hunt because people complained so much about doom making them unable to play their character so with wild hunt you never lose your ability to play your character you just lose some power etc.

Running the game for shorter arcs with pwipes is also possible, but again there’s a feeling of pointlessness if you know your character is going to get wiped soon, and if the new version isn’t meaningfully different it magnifies that feeling of pointlessness.

It’s fine to be critical or think you have better ideas, but I think pretending the problem is easy or doesn’t exist doesn’t do anyone any favors.

[Evermore]

So are we facing a wipe? Those of us still around would appreciate some information regarding that. I think I share Talia’s perspective here, where a rerun just seems to cater to nostalgia, and will quickly run dry. I’ve no experience with these older iterations, so I’ve no real clue what to expect, but it’s a blow to my remaining motivation to know this version is just going to get tossed aside for a hail mary attempt of reviving the game through appealing to nostalgia.

I genuinely think H7 isn’t unsavable. It is just kind of neglected. Those of us who still play have kind of managed to stabilize the state of the Legion. We had a few active societies working/playing together. We had a few plots going, and still managed to host some events. We just needed some tweaking of mechanics to make the game balanced around the lower player count. We needed a few more people to stick around, and be willing to get out there into town every so often. But it would seem that the opinions of those still investing in/playing the game is not worth much when weighed against those who do not play it anymore.

[Evermore]

*Evalina’s perspective, not Talia’s – my bad

[bean]

i realise we’re past the point of actually discussing anything useful but since a decision has already been made, i won’t feel bad now about derailing this thread further, as its actual purpose has expired

i would just like to say that the wild hunt was a cool concept, story-wise.

i realise the point of it was not story, it was to solve an ooc game design problem.

i think people would have enjoyed the wild hunt more and been along for the ride if it actually had story attached. maybe even doom too.

people play these games (largely) for story.

if you ignore that then you will only get gamist players mad about gamist things instead of people here for story excited about story things.

it’s like if your goal was to argue in favour of the institution of marriage but you just focus on the financial or political benefits. people who are happily married aren’t thinking about how it united their houses. they’re thinking about how great the sex is and that their partner keeps the romance alive.

wild hunt & doom had no romance. no story. story in concept was just for show. it was just a functional systems feature.

so many problems with haven are not down to bad ideas. they are down to wasted potential/execution/storylessness of those ideas.

[Author]

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