Newbie Channel Reminder

[Malin]

This post is a reminder that the Newbie channel is intended solely for asking for help and receiving help from others. It is not an OOC chat channel. We already have a OOC channels specifically for out-of-character conversation.

OOC chatting is a community feature players gain access to through a few different chat channels in game by donating to support the game. If you are spending time here and enjoying Haven, please consider donating to help keep the game running.

Using the Newbie channel as a substitute OOC channel is not appropriate. It disrupts the purpose of the help channel and undermines the systems and intentions staff deliberately put in place for the game’s communication structure. Group OOC communication within the game is a feature tied to financially supporting the game.

If donating is not something you wish to do, or you are not currently in a financial position to donate, there are still many other ways to communicate OOCly with others, including tells, Discord, and similar alternatives.

Please help us keep the Newbie channel clear, functional, and welcoming for players who genuinely need assistance, rather than chatting, joking, providing play by plays, plot info, etc. Thank you.

[Evermore]

I am all for moderating channels when its uses can no longer be fulfilled. Think of someone trying to ask a genuine question, but this question being drowned by random banter on the channel. That is a moment where you should enforce these rules. However, as per the HELP OOC POLICY helpfile, it states this:

“All OOC aspects of the game: tells, channels, forums, notes etc are granted
on a probationary basis. Any time when someone’s use of those channels seems
detrimental to the enjoyment of others playing the game in any way they
will be removed from the player who is causing that detrimental effect.”

I do not think when people express absolutely shock, surprise, and amusement about a mechanic they were not familiar with is detrimental to anyone’s enjoyment, or is genuinely ever cluttering the channel to the point it can’t be used. And I’d hope moderation understands that point. People expressing their enjoyment of aspects of a plot, also, does not really break these rules, I’d think. They’re keeping positivity up, they’re sharing appreciation, they’re helping boost the entertainment factor. These are the people who still play the game, who still partake in writing story for the game, who keep the conflict narrative alive. I am sorry to have to play that card, but I would argue it is far more detrimental to the enjoyment of the game to see people who do not partake (much) complain about us playing and trying to enjoy the game, than anyone sharing a quick funny remark or some quick ‘wow what the heeeeck’ commentary is being a detriment.

Nobody hops in Newbie and has a long talk about how their day has been, about what the weather is like, about the state of politics in some corner of the world. And nobody is doing that when people are trying to ask their questions. If that happens, I think we are all supportive of reminding them to keep things to questions and their answers for a while. Heck, if we go off by the HELP NEWBIE file, you could reason it suggests OOC communication is fine on it to a degree. The comma after ‘to communicate OOCly with the game’ makes the getting/giving help look like a second purpose of the channel. If it is, indeed, solely there for a quick Q&A, make sure the helpfile actually emphasises that. Give it a specific rule. And let the admins moderate it. People have been going ‘keep it to questions’ when people are, quite literally, talking about the topic of a question.

If not for the at times light-hearted nature of Newbie, I probably would not have stuck around. It’s there where people showed positivity and optimism. Is that not a good thing now, and should being able to express it be locked behind a monetary barrier, or having to exchange Discord identities? Come on.. How often have we even had plots in the last months? How often does this genuinely happen, compared to how often Newbie is desperately needed to answer questions. Most of the times we were providing these play-by-plays during plots, there were literally only us participants and one or two players online if even that.

[Evermore]

Just to clarify: I am not defending the wrongful use of Newbie where it has really devolved into just commentary, jokes, that sort of stuff, when it’s going on for a good 20+ messages between people. Those are definitely moments I feel a reminder to keep the channel clear again is just. I’ve been a part of that happening a few times, so I bear the guilt of that too. The reminder is acknowledged and respected for what it’s worth, I’ll try and do better on my part. What I was more hoping to open up for discussion is the question of when it should be fair to pull that trigger, so to say. A good example comes to mind that happened just yesterday.

We were having spectated spars during a calendar event, six people in attendance out of the 10-or-so online. During a round of RPFight, which is still a very new thing to several of us there, one PC slammed another PC through a wall and moved the fight into a different room/outside of the event logging. They responded with a ‘wooooow’ on Newbie, and it prompted me to start writing a question what even happened there, but pretty much a second after the first message, that reminder to keep it purely to questions popped up. That killed the initial excitement of this discovery, soured it some, even if we could still then inquire about what happened. Being able to express some excitement like that is healthy, I would argue, while getting told pretty much to can it is detrimental to the general atmosphere. There’s been plenty of other times in recent memory where something weird, surprising, shocking, buggy, or otherwise unexpected event or outcome of some mechanic had people Newbie a response to that, and it has very often lead to people like myself being able to hook in and turn it into an actual Q&A about the specific thing or some associated mechanic the talks brought up. You’d be surprised how enlightening it can be, hearing people just talk about some of the game’s mechanics at times. There’s a lot of little commands or mechanics I discovered just from those moments of slightly (okay.. and sometimes very) derailed Newbie talk. If all of that was happening in a channel I don’t have access to, it’d not have made me come to appreciate the game’s at times bizarre complexity as much.

That, to me, is a good example of why something like the OOC Policy helpfile could specify that ‘detrimental to the enjoyment of others playing the game’. Some of these times, it happens when we were with 5 people on a plot, and there were only 6 people in total online. A light bit of banter, commentary, and such, I think shouldn’t be met with this kind of response to silence it or move it to a donator-only channel. That’s not too strange to believe, I hope? Or at least to help forgive the behaviour some.

[Maina]

Some people do not like any OOC on their RP games at all. These people will often make an allowance for a newbie channel because newbies need helped. Every off-topic post to a newbie channel risks more people turning off newbie and less newbies getting helped. Any presupposed benefit that running commentary provides is countered by potentially getting newbies less help in the future.

Not to mention commentary like that ‘woow’ is disrespectful to people who are not in the scene and are getting information about goings-on that they do not want and should not have. This is not improved by there being only one person presently excluded from the current scene. It’s just rubbing their nose in the fact that they are not part of things.

You can try to think up reasons why breaking rules and misusing mechanics are okay, or you can be considerate of your fellow players. Not both. If you want to express excitement, there is an opt-in channel that serves this purpose. If that channel and that purpose were considered necessary to the function of the game, it would be available to everyone.

[Evermore]

And every time a newbie expresses themselves on a channel, only to get shut down and told to pay up if they want to be able to chat, what do you think that risks. That risks new players leaving the game, too. If those players do not want any OOC, they can just toggle Newbie off; There’s plenty of people around who keep it on that are available to help. That ‘wow’ is not disrespectful – It’s a new player’s genuine excitement and surprise about something they knew nothing about, so that could have been a perfect hook to teach them about the game more, make them enjoy/respect the mechanics more. It’s ridiculously disrespectful to feel so privileged that you want the game to respect your complete isolation of any and all OOC aspects, that you dogpile a new player’s excitement the very second it is uttered, and now possibly shattered motivation/excitement for it.

Be considerate, indeed. I don’t see how you’re promoting any kind of considerate behaviour, offer even a mild amount of leniency. You just want people to be considerate of you. You know what else is rubbing their noses in the fact they are not part of things? An exclusive, donator-only channel where they could express that excitement they are constantly told to take it to. The game currently isn’t really in a state I personally think donating is valid. Asking for a hundred American dollars for someone just to say ‘woooow’..

Again. I’m not defending incessant use of Newbie for off-topic shit. But I generally only see the same few people in the game, on Newbie, and there really only ever is one person who ends up complaining. You cannot muster even a speck of consideration for new players, but you want a majority of the players to be considerate for a single person.

Are they breaking rules? There’s the OOC Policy. There is the Newbie helpfile being anything but direct. There’s the general MU* atmosphere where pretty much any single MU* I played has free OOC channels available for people to talk to one another/share positive commentary. If the Newbie is PURELY for questions and could not derail from that for even a single post, it shouldn’t be that hard to reflect this in the rules. Where are they misusing mechanics, too. It is just a channel, that those who are frustrated by it can easily toggle off – Their presence isn’t mandatory or required, it is entirely opt-in, too. Genuinely, they can toggle it off and I’m sure in 99.5% of the cases, any questions will still be answered by those of us around.

[Maina]

You can try to present disrespecting your fellow players and the rules of the game as some sort of moral high ground, but it doesn’t change the fact that you are disrespecting your fellow players and the rules of the game. Channels have a purpose. Just because you don’t have access to the general chat channel doesn’t give you the right to turn the newbie help into a general chat channel. This isn’t a moral high ground. This is throwing a tantrum that you don’t have the toy you want.

You can try to dress this up as something positive for newbies all you want, but it really just boils down to you being upset that you don’t have access to a feature you didn’t pay for. If it helps, I can tell you it isn’t all that great of a feature. It’s historically so toxic that I’ve quit the game over the relentless negativity. You know, exactly the sort of thing that shouldn’t be on newbie channel and inevitably leaks there whenever people start treating it like a general chat channel.

It is really not that hard to just use things for their intended purpose. It benefits everyone because they know exactly what they’re going to get when they sign up for it. People should not have to choose between the ability to help newbies and getting IC events spoiled or getting spammed by unrelated text. Thinking they should just turn it off if they don’t like you misusing it is, frankly, incredibly selfish. It isn’t there for you. It isn’t there for that purpose. They shouldn’t have to sacrifice the ability to perform the function of the channel because people want to use it for other things. The people who want to use it for its intended purpose are, quite obviously, the ones in the right. It’s absolutely absurd to suggest the people wanting to use it for what it was designed for should turn it off to accommodate the people who want to use it for something else. It’s entitled and absurd. I can’t believe this is a conversation we are even having.

[Evalina]

Ah, Haven. Even with a handful of players left, still arguing heatedly about how to use it. Never change 😀

But I have to say, the least toxic time I’ve seen in Haven was when OOC was just available to everyone. Having OOC available to newbies made newbies have a much easier time getting to know people and made veterans less able to turn OOC into a toxic echo chamber. It was nice. As someone who pays for OOC, I found the quality much less pleasant when it went back to being exclusive.

[Evalina]

…ugh can’t edit messages but I want to clarify this isn’t me supporting breaking the rules. It’s Nova’s game, Nova decides what is for what. Making a one-off joke or comment in Newbie isn’t going to cause a nuclear reaction, but it’s simply not a chat channel, it’s meant for just questions, answers, advice. And doing anything else in there is kind of disrespecting the game Nova gives you for free.

[Evermore]

“It’s historically so toxic that I’ve quit the game over the relentless negativity.”

So here I am, being relentless and supporting toxic gate-keeping of a channel in a game that I’ve quit, over behaviour I have not witnessed, behaviour that has not been toxic in the slightest other than from those trying to silence the active players. But I’m the selfish person on moral high ground. Come off it.

[Mirudus]

This comes up every so often. Hi, I’m one of the people to harp on newbie channel misuse most often.

I enjoy helping newbies and teaching people. I’d say there’s a handful of players left I haven’t helped/mentored/run through mechanics/etc at some point. I’ve answered questions for all of you on the newbie channel.

In several previous versions, Haven had fairly constant human moderation on both the forums and the newbie channel. This often proved necessary, with how high tempers would flare. However, they also received an absolute boatload of flak for their moderation style. Little side comments and jokes, like players have gotten used to making these days, would get your newbie privileges revoked for a week. Hell, you’d lose posting privs for commenting a “+1” and “not adding any substance.”

Was this annoying to me, as a player? Yes, at times, it absolutely was. Was it unfair? No – if anything, Discordance was unerringly quick-triggered with revoking posting privileges or nochans. I do not envy them. We are, after all, breaking rule 8.

Rule 8 exists for a few reasons, best as I recall:
1) the OOC channel exists, and is paywalled to donors.
— Is this something I agree with? Not particularly, but it is not my game to monetize.
2) these games tend to be healthier when global OOC chat channels aren’t freely/widely available
— Again, debatable; the start of 7 with global OOC access to all was pretty smooth operating, as far as toxicity went. But still, not my design decision.
3) people often use mtalk and mentoring as a way to ‘cheat’ and funnel IC information to their mentees
— True, which is why they are limited to aiding newbies, same with information over newbie.
4) some people really don’t want to be spammed with one-liners, non-sequiturs, and comments about how good/bad the rolls are going on an adventure they’re not on
— Hi. It’s me, I’m some people. This shit annoys me. It’s wonderful that it doesn’t annoy you. I think part of me unironically has PTSD and is trying to keep you from copping a ban when Disco shows up out of nowhere one day, but a not insignificant portion of me is just annoyed. You’re welcome to friend people, send tells, Discord, all that, and discuss to your heart’s content. Newbie is for questions and answers; it’s not for color commentary on how well you feel a system may or may not work, or if you’re STILL waiting on a petition answer, or whatnot. At no point was I telling you to stop talking about the rpxp system; I was stating that petitions/forum posts are where you will see any action on your bug regarding it. People have also been nochanned for griping on newbie in the past.

I really do enjoy helping people, and people learning. I don’t enjoy feeling the urge to turn newbie off because the 5 people currently in an event are subjecting the entire game to commentary of what’s happening. Questions? Sure! Yes! Please!

[Evermore]

The forums are pretty much dead. Telling people to take it here isn’t really a solution. From what I’ve seen, it is frequented more by people who do not play and want to harp on the game from the side-lines than it is by actual, active players.

For one, I agree we don’t need commentary on every roll/sequence of rolls of Adventures to get shared there. You are totally in your right snuffing that kind of talk from Newbie when it happens. All I’m doing is pointing out that there is a helpfile about the OOC Policies of channels, and I’m still adamant that the rare/occasional use of Newbie for some excitement/positivity/commentary is far more of a benefit to the gamestate, to the enjoyment of people, than it is a detriment. And that it is something people should also consider when looking at Rule 8.

Additionally, the whole Tell system is scuffed as can be. Even if you add people, and they have you added back, there are times you cannot message them. I have had this issue with Matthew, where the ONLY way to communicate with him is if he sends me a Tell first – even if we’re both mutually friend’ed. I’ve never seen a more roundabout way just to send someone a message.. And it also doesn’t provide the ability to talk with the group of people unless you individually add each person participating, and send them all the same messages. From what I’m gathering, there’s more vitriol because of things/events of the past still having people sour and upset than anything else.

It is funny to see people argue that having no OOC channel helps keep MU*s positive, when every MU* I look back fondly on, I can look back fondly on because the people actually shared a sense of community, togetherness, had the ability to banter and chat OOCly some. Haven is probably tainted by players/attitudes of the past, and thus still shelters itself from this because there is a good chance that the toxicity of the past can just come bubbling up again. A pity; Understandable, but a pity.

If anything, I’d almost start advocating for the rules to relax some. At least in this current state. We have, what.. maybe 10 active players around. Do you genuinely think it is going to be productive to strictly regulate these people about the use of a single channel, to the point we’re threatening to revoke that channel and likely kill the only way to reliably get any kind of question answered in the game. Is that the position we should take? Is that what you want to reflect to the new players, that they’re always on thin ice in Haven and lord forbid they do something that, in the distant past, would have been met with a ban-hammer, because it could have possibly been some catalyst for streams of toxic behaviour, meta-commentary, and whatnot else?

[Miles]

The newbie channel is for asking and answering questions.

Period.

Full-stop.

Do not pass go. Do not use newbie as a substitute for osay. Osay does not exist for a reason. Do not use newbie as a substitute for OOC. OOC exists and is restricted for a reason. There is a reason that OOC is a different channel from newbie. That’s because newbie is for asking and answering questions.

The end.

If you clutter newbie with unwanted OOC chatter, you’re starting a process.

Step 1a: You’re giving the rest of the game a sense that your behavior is acceptable and encouraging other people to participate in the bad behavior.
Step 1b: You’re annoying the living shit out of people who are using the channel for it’s intended purpose.
Step 2: People who use newbie specifically to answer questions turn newbie off because they’re tired of hearing you.
Step 3: Newbies get less help, and the help they get is coming exclusively from people who are happily engaging in annoying, rulebreaking behavior, which sculpts newbies into their annoying, rulebreaking image.
Step 4: People who aren’t annoying rulebreakers quit the game.

[Ouroboros]

You shouldn’t be using the newbie channel for stuff other than asking for help/giving help. Obviously some harmless follow up like ‘thanks for the help’ or whatever doesn’t matter but if you use it as a general chat channel you’ll lose your channels.

Even outside of the ooc channel you can send tells, exchange discord details etc. It’s not hard to communicate oocly with people who want to communicate with you.

[Evalina]

It is worth mentioning evermore was right on one thing, unless this was fixed, tells were incredibly broken while I was playing and their words suggest it still is. I had friends who I tell’d frequently, where we both confirmed tells were on, were we had each other added, and it was still a roll of the dice who could tell who. Some I couldn’t tell. Some couldn’t tell me (and I assure you my settings were right, I am obsessive about that kind of thing).

So I kind of get in some cases why people use newbie to ask people stuff that should be in tells – tells sometimes don’t work even if both players want them to and not everyone is OK sharing their discord.

[Evermore]

Everything you said, Miles, is just your own misguided perception of things.

Again, since I came here, Newbie’s been lax, to say the least, and this has made it very positive. People I talked to were helpful, friendly, and it lead to being able to make positive changes/steps in the game. It is only when a very, very select handful of people are around that tempers flare the very second anyone posts a message in Newbie that they perceive as not directly related to a question, that your kind of attitude bubbles up.

I could theorize a similar process for the kind of attitude this current ruleset generates:
– Newbie joins Haven, and is used to most other MU*s channels’ attitudes and says hello on the channel.
– Newbie gets barked at that this channel is exclusively for questions
– Newbie feels attacked, leaves.

– Newbie asks question
– Question leads to more questions and examples
– Someone randomly logs on, and sees only part of this question chain
– This someone is now barking at Newbie because, to them, the conversation has derailed.
– People just shut up.

– Person runs into unexpected outcome, and goes ‘wow’
– Person wants to inquire
– Person gets barked at right away
– Person silences their excitement because the ‘mood’ is now ruined.

All of these behaviours also lead to people quitting the game, and not for being ‘annoying rulebreakers’. I now can’t ask my questions on that channel. It’s impeding my ability to play. You left. Evalina left. Miru doesn’t play much. Malin barely clocks time in-game. I was active. Now I’m pretty close to quitting because these limitations are now crippling my ability to explore what I want to explore in the game, and reminders like these are souring the atmosphere because it feels like that every step we try and take is still being measured and judged by people I don’t even know or play the game with. I genuinely wonder what aspects of the game you people are unable to enjoy because of that previous misuse of channels. And, on that note, I genuinely am apologetic for when I myself really went off-the-rails with any plot play-by-plays or commentary or whatever.

I absolutely get that me and others have definitely used the channel for unintended purposes before, and I don’t aim to annoy people doing it that way. But, again, I came here when the attitude was lax, relaxed, and positive, with people often using Newbie with a bit less strict of an approach to that ruleset, and never did anyone step in all ‘stop talking, only questions’. And that’s after being unable to even use the channel for around ~2 months upon joining the game. I genuinely didn’t know any better. And now, it’s instantly gone from getting barked at, being told you’re a f*#cking nuissance and annoying rulebreaker, and instantly losing your channel privs.

Rules are rules. We are to follow them. But I would have thought there to be a bit of leniency or flexibility, but it seems most of you do not agree.

[Author]

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