[Evermore]

Got to add, as a new player I liked how H7 was a fresh, clean sheet in a way. A major issue with Haven you’d read or hear all about is a certain element of elitist gate-keeping. Of people wanting others to play how they felt the lore/mechanics should be interpreted. Of people being able to impose veterancy and superiority over others. Of people stifling RP because they can point at a helpfile and use it to strong-arm others into ceasing their creative efforts.

It would be super overwhelming to suddenly have to, basically, start completely anew in a game setting that I’m not familiar with. I’m just one person, of course, but I would not be motivated in the slightest to stick around if I try to log on one day, only to find out H7 has been replaced with an old reboot, and I’m basically completely back at square 1.

The people still around H7 are still working on keeping the city and situation stable. Hell, we have ACTUALLY been able to fight off the Legion incursion, which nearly had every borough occupied. We would all welcome any returning/new characters with open arms. We’re all waiting for a little surge of activity to go run Lookfor events again, to run plots again, to run encounters again, to host events again. This is why I think the better path forwards is to rebuild trust, and to incentivize people to return to Haven as a whole, instead of throwing a nostalgia-flavoured piece of candy at them in hopes of gaining a brief resurgence in activity.

[Evermore]

I’m personally not that stoked on the idea of rerunning old versions. From what I’ve gathered, these all had their own major issues, and I’m already mildly annoyed at the idea of this ‘small town’ vibe where people are driving around in hyper-exclusive cars, building excessive mega-mansions, and having the playerbase split up in school/faction/townies even harder than it was right now.

Honestly, I think the main issue with H7 seems to be a main issue that I have heard others complain about being present in previous versions. Decay, a doom mechanic; basically, all these mechanics that are thrown at us, severely crippling players or punishing them for sticking around/playing a character for a while while offering just about nothing in return.

What killed H7 was that first big hunt, which sadly was around when I joined the game. I saw the playerbase hit 30+ before it came around, and when it hit, the playerbase struggled to stay around 10. It has not recovered since, and that’s because it has completely shattered trust. Trust in that the players’ time and investment is respected. Trust in that these systems are getting reworked some. Trust in that their feedback about how negatively this Wild Hunt mechanic impacts their motivation/gameplay is being received positively.

Do you genuinely believe that, if you launch Haven 8 as a reroll of some old version, it’ll do well in the long run? You could, honestly, remove the Wild Hunt mechanic of H7 right now, and offer some incentives to returning players, and work/commit to revive H7 first. Otherwise, you’re likely just setting up this new Haven for a 1-2 month period of popularity before it inevitably declines, and I’m sure with its brief revival comes the return of the same cliques, the same groups, the same power-players, that are prone to causing a lot of friction that deters other people from really committing.

[Evermore]

The same nonsense just happened in Fairefield, another Borough I’ve been working on for months. It went from a 20 vs 30% competition to 16 vs 52. You genuinely need to do something about this sh*t.

[Evermore]

Oh, also note – I contributed a Raid item to a x3 effective Borough, and this still happened. It’s incredibly, and I mean INCREDIBLY disheartening system to fight against. It’s one of the biggest examples of mechanics in this game that don’t respect your time in the slightest, and seems balanced around having an active competition of 20+ players.

– Have you considered toning this stuff down while this iterations runs its course?

– Can you do anything to ‘equalize’ the playing fields somewhat, so that us lingering players can actually try and play this aspect of the game?

– What would happen when (not if, it’s looking like a guarantee at this rate) the Legion just holds every single borough?

[Evermore]

Nobody is encouraging us to break rules. That’s a real bizarre leap of logic to make. Nobody was devolving Newbie by holding hour-long conversations about random OOC topics. What did happen, every rare now and then, is that the conversations on Newbie did kind of devolve into side-path stories/play-by-plays that, I agree, should not be spammed too excessively.

But yes, I kind of understand your points, Ama. My Newbie channel privs were revoked, likely due to these complaints from non-playing people who were never (with the exclusion of pofEdward) even bothered by my use of the channel. When we’d have 20+ people online, with several of whom relying on Newbie to actually pose questions, I get that it’s vital to keep the channel from derailing. But when we struggle to even have more than 10 people around, most of whom don’t give two sh*ts about how we communicated on Newbie, there is that leniency I was hoping for. I tried to always keep the OOC Policy helpfile in mind, to not be detrimental to someone’s enjoyment, but judging by my current newbie channel ban, I guess I did it wrongy still. I’m really debating leaving this game behind at this point, and seeing this kind of vehement aggression and hostility thrown at us playing people by those who don’t even play is a gigantic detrimental factor.

I have a lot of questions piling up, and am now quite unable to get these answered. It’s severely hampering my ability to explore/enjoy/play the game to the point it is, practically, unplayable.

[Evermore]

Correction: Maina quit, not Evalina.

[Evermore]

Everything you said, Miles, is just your own misguided perception of things.

Again, since I came here, Newbie’s been lax, to say the least, and this has made it very positive. People I talked to were helpful, friendly, and it lead to being able to make positive changes/steps in the game. It is only when a very, very select handful of people are around that tempers flare the very second anyone posts a message in Newbie that they perceive as not directly related to a question, that your kind of attitude bubbles up.

I could theorize a similar process for the kind of attitude this current ruleset generates:
– Newbie joins Haven, and is used to most other MU*s channels’ attitudes and says hello on the channel.
– Newbie gets barked at that this channel is exclusively for questions
– Newbie feels attacked, leaves.

– Newbie asks question
– Question leads to more questions and examples
– Someone randomly logs on, and sees only part of this question chain
– This someone is now barking at Newbie because, to them, the conversation has derailed.
– People just shut up.

– Person runs into unexpected outcome, and goes ‘wow’
– Person wants to inquire
– Person gets barked at right away
– Person silences their excitement because the ‘mood’ is now ruined.

All of these behaviours also lead to people quitting the game, and not for being ‘annoying rulebreakers’. I now can’t ask my questions on that channel. It’s impeding my ability to play. You left. Evalina left. Miru doesn’t play much. Malin barely clocks time in-game. I was active. Now I’m pretty close to quitting because these limitations are now crippling my ability to explore what I want to explore in the game, and reminders like these are souring the atmosphere because it feels like that every step we try and take is still being measured and judged by people I don’t even know or play the game with. I genuinely wonder what aspects of the game you people are unable to enjoy because of that previous misuse of channels. And, on that note, I genuinely am apologetic for when I myself really went off-the-rails with any plot play-by-plays or commentary or whatever.

I absolutely get that me and others have definitely used the channel for unintended purposes before, and I don’t aim to annoy people doing it that way. But, again, I came here when the attitude was lax, relaxed, and positive, with people often using Newbie with a bit less strict of an approach to that ruleset, and never did anyone step in all ‘stop talking, only questions’. And that’s after being unable to even use the channel for around ~2 months upon joining the game. I genuinely didn’t know any better. And now, it’s instantly gone from getting barked at, being told you’re a f*#cking nuissance and annoying rulebreaker, and instantly losing your channel privs.

Rules are rules. We are to follow them. But I would have thought there to be a bit of leniency or flexibility, but it seems most of you do not agree.

[Evermore]

Generally, a good day is seeing around 10 people online and visible. At the earlier hours, it’s more like a max of 5. It is a population problem. Most people left when the first Hunt hit and took a lot of people. Few ever really returned, it seemed. It creates this odd vacuum where we need active people, but there then also just isn’t anything to do with the few that we have and who care to go out. It doesn’t help that the little bit of RP that does exist, happens within specific circles only.

[Evermore]

I tried that. But what if said player will never log back on, and they’re able to permanently hold onto the store because of Business Person? I tried sending them a text, but inactivity prevents reaching their number, so I also sent them an OOC note.

That’s why I thought a Renovate petition would be the only way. I could be waiting until time immemorial before that store would become available. Thanks, though, for the answer 🙂

[Evermore]

The forums are pretty much dead. Telling people to take it here isn’t really a solution. From what I’ve seen, it is frequented more by people who do not play and want to harp on the game from the side-lines than it is by actual, active players.

For one, I agree we don’t need commentary on every roll/sequence of rolls of Adventures to get shared there. You are totally in your right snuffing that kind of talk from Newbie when it happens. All I’m doing is pointing out that there is a helpfile about the OOC Policies of channels, and I’m still adamant that the rare/occasional use of Newbie for some excitement/positivity/commentary is far more of a benefit to the gamestate, to the enjoyment of people, than it is a detriment. And that it is something people should also consider when looking at Rule 8.

Additionally, the whole Tell system is scuffed as can be. Even if you add people, and they have you added back, there are times you cannot message them. I have had this issue with Matthew, where the ONLY way to communicate with him is if he sends me a Tell first – even if we’re both mutually friend’ed. I’ve never seen a more roundabout way just to send someone a message.. And it also doesn’t provide the ability to talk with the group of people unless you individually add each person participating, and send them all the same messages. From what I’m gathering, there’s more vitriol because of things/events of the past still having people sour and upset than anything else.

It is funny to see people argue that having no OOC channel helps keep MU*s positive, when every MU* I look back fondly on, I can look back fondly on because the people actually shared a sense of community, togetherness, had the ability to banter and chat OOCly some. Haven is probably tainted by players/attitudes of the past, and thus still shelters itself from this because there is a good chance that the toxicity of the past can just come bubbling up again. A pity; Understandable, but a pity.

If anything, I’d almost start advocating for the rules to relax some. At least in this current state. We have, what.. maybe 10 active players around. Do you genuinely think it is going to be productive to strictly regulate these people about the use of a single channel, to the point we’re threatening to revoke that channel and likely kill the only way to reliably get any kind of question answered in the game. Is that the position we should take? Is that what you want to reflect to the new players, that they’re always on thin ice in Haven and lord forbid they do something that, in the distant past, would have been met with a ban-hammer, because it could have possibly been some catalyst for streams of toxic behaviour, meta-commentary, and whatnot else?

[Evermore]

This is still happening. Last week, only got 3 contact payouts. Some times, it literally takes me being around for 6+ hours before it will register them.

[Evermore]

“It’s historically so toxic that I’ve quit the game over the relentless negativity.”

So here I am, being relentless and supporting toxic gate-keeping of a channel in a game that I’ve quit, over behaviour I have not witnessed, behaviour that has not been toxic in the slightest other than from those trying to silence the active players. But I’m the selfish person on moral high ground. Come off it.

[Evermore]

And every time a newbie expresses themselves on a channel, only to get shut down and told to pay up if they want to be able to chat, what do you think that risks. That risks new players leaving the game, too. If those players do not want any OOC, they can just toggle Newbie off; There’s plenty of people around who keep it on that are available to help. That ‘wow’ is not disrespectful – It’s a new player’s genuine excitement and surprise about something they knew nothing about, so that could have been a perfect hook to teach them about the game more, make them enjoy/respect the mechanics more. It’s ridiculously disrespectful to feel so privileged that you want the game to respect your complete isolation of any and all OOC aspects, that you dogpile a new player’s excitement the very second it is uttered, and now possibly shattered motivation/excitement for it.

Be considerate, indeed. I don’t see how you’re promoting any kind of considerate behaviour, offer even a mild amount of leniency. You just want people to be considerate of you. You know what else is rubbing their noses in the fact they are not part of things? An exclusive, donator-only channel where they could express that excitement they are constantly told to take it to. The game currently isn’t really in a state I personally think donating is valid. Asking for a hundred American dollars for someone just to say ‘woooow’..

Again. I’m not defending incessant use of Newbie for off-topic shit. But I generally only see the same few people in the game, on Newbie, and there really only ever is one person who ends up complaining. You cannot muster even a speck of consideration for new players, but you want a majority of the players to be considerate for a single person.

Are they breaking rules? There’s the OOC Policy. There is the Newbie helpfile being anything but direct. There’s the general MU* atmosphere where pretty much any single MU* I played has free OOC channels available for people to talk to one another/share positive commentary. If the Newbie is PURELY for questions and could not derail from that for even a single post, it shouldn’t be that hard to reflect this in the rules. Where are they misusing mechanics, too. It is just a channel, that those who are frustrated by it can easily toggle off – Their presence isn’t mandatory or required, it is entirely opt-in, too. Genuinely, they can toggle it off and I’m sure in 99.5% of the cases, any questions will still be answered by those of us around.

[Evermore]

Just to clarify: I am not defending the wrongful use of Newbie where it has really devolved into just commentary, jokes, that sort of stuff, when it’s going on for a good 20+ messages between people. Those are definitely moments I feel a reminder to keep the channel clear again is just. I’ve been a part of that happening a few times, so I bear the guilt of that too. The reminder is acknowledged and respected for what it’s worth, I’ll try and do better on my part. What I was more hoping to open up for discussion is the question of when it should be fair to pull that trigger, so to say. A good example comes to mind that happened just yesterday.

We were having spectated spars during a calendar event, six people in attendance out of the 10-or-so online. During a round of RPFight, which is still a very new thing to several of us there, one PC slammed another PC through a wall and moved the fight into a different room/outside of the event logging. They responded with a ‘wooooow’ on Newbie, and it prompted me to start writing a question what even happened there, but pretty much a second after the first message, that reminder to keep it purely to questions popped up. That killed the initial excitement of this discovery, soured it some, even if we could still then inquire about what happened. Being able to express some excitement like that is healthy, I would argue, while getting told pretty much to can it is detrimental to the general atmosphere. There’s been plenty of other times in recent memory where something weird, surprising, shocking, buggy, or otherwise unexpected event or outcome of some mechanic had people Newbie a response to that, and it has very often lead to people like myself being able to hook in and turn it into an actual Q&A about the specific thing or some associated mechanic the talks brought up. You’d be surprised how enlightening it can be, hearing people just talk about some of the game’s mechanics at times. There’s a lot of little commands or mechanics I discovered just from those moments of slightly (okay.. and sometimes very) derailed Newbie talk. If all of that was happening in a channel I don’t have access to, it’d not have made me come to appreciate the game’s at times bizarre complexity as much.

That, to me, is a good example of why something like the OOC Policy helpfile could specify that ‘detrimental to the enjoyment of others playing the game’. Some of these times, it happens when we were with 5 people on a plot, and there were only 6 people in total online. A light bit of banter, commentary, and such, I think shouldn’t be met with this kind of response to silence it or move it to a donator-only channel. That’s not too strange to believe, I hope? Or at least to help forgive the behaviour some.

[Evermore]

It isn’t, sorry. Appreciate the gesture, though. I’m looking at Nowhere (Fairefield Parking Lot)

[Author]

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